Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[Raziel]

Ange has more options to switch things that Poch did - he has square pegs to fit into square holes. In Poch's second season he had to shoehorn a CB into a defensive midfielder. Agree that Dembele was a beast, but his body struggled with the demands of the PL. Same with Wanyama.

Where the difference comes between the 2 is that Poch ensured a better balance between defence and attack. Ange set up yesterday with Madison sitting deep and Sarr on the bench whereas Poch would have had, where possible 2 defensive midfielders who would cover across when the full backs bombed forward.

Ange learnt yesterday from the Brighton debacle, probably because we were not dominating WHam like we did Brighton. He swapped Maddison for Sarr which changed the game. Good on him. Hope it means he is learning to be more flexible tactically. He has a pretty good squad and needs to use it.

Poch had a better first 11 (for now), Ange has a better squad

I think there is more competition for places than I can remember, from the team that started yesterday, Bentancur, Dragusin, Sarr, Spence, Richi all can claim to be pushing for a first team spot, even Gray, Bergvall, Werner should be in picture.

 

[Muttley]

People reinvent history to support their case sometimes. Poch had been offered numerous players but I think he decided against them as they didn’t suit him. I think poch would fair much better under the current setup of buying players rather than enjoyed previously.

What you say resonates with me. Poch managed in a very tough climate with the stadium build going ahead in parallel to him trying to build a great squad.

He clearly got fed up with accepting 3rd or 4th choice transfer selections and in the end refused them altogether. Then the narrative became about him not signing anyone.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

What you say resonates with me. Poch managed in a very tough climate with the stadium build going ahead in parallel to him trying to build a great squad.

He clearly got fed up with accepting 3rd or 4th choice transfer selections and in the end refused them altogether. Then the narrative became about him not signing anyone.

He turned down good players
His choice
Managers live and die by that

 

[Muttley]

He turned down good players
His choice
Managers live and die by that

Serious question here.

Who were these good players in 2018 (?) that Poch turned down? Nobody has ever been able to give me a single, credible name but like to use the narrative you just did.

The only half credible name I heard was Tielemans, and I'm not even sure he was available for anything but a loan.

I still hold the opinion that our recruitment team and Levy couldn't close a door that year and let their manager down badly.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Serious question here.

Who were these good players in 2018 (?) that Poch turned down? Nobody has ever been able to give me a single, credible name but like to use the narrative you just did.

The only half credible name I heard was Tielemans, and I'm not even sure he was available for anything but a loan.

I still hold the opinion that our recruitment team and Levy couldn't close a door that year and let their manager down badly.

Tielemans was definitely one
It was reported at the time as rumours but confirmed by ex players at the club
Poch did great things but hai record with transfers isn’t good
I can’t comment who else because I wasn’t in the room. He chose to not take Tielemans to keep Sissoko starting. It was a loan to buy which is how Lestah got him too I think

 

[Muttley]

Tielemans was definitely one
It was reported at the time as rumours but confirmed by ex players at the club
Poch did great things but hai record with transfers isn’t good
I can’t comment who else because I wasn’t in the room. He chose to not take Tielemans to keep Sissoko starting. It was a loan to buy which is how Lestah got him too I think

I watched us get linked to the Ajax guys, De Ligt and De Jong. I think we were hot on others like Dybala at the time. There were others as well that would get fans excited. However, we couldn't land any of the players at this level and only a year before had got Llorente, Moura, Aurier etc. I still think Poch had had enough of his recruitment team headed up by Hitchen, and used his power of veto on their 3rd or 4th choices. He also talked openly about having disruptive starts to season because of the constant procrastination on deals where Levy was involved. He was at his wits end with his leadership colleagues who weren't performing.

You can definitely see why we tried to get Trevor Birch in to run that entire football operations function a year later.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I watched us get linked to the Ajax guys, De Ligt and De Jong. I think we were hot on others like Dybala at the time. There were others as well that would get fans excited. However, we couldn't land any of the players at this level and only a year before had got Llorente, Moura, Aurier etc. I still think Poch had had enough of his recruitment team headed up by Hitchen, and used his power of veto on their 3rd or 4th choices. He also talked openly about having disruptive starts to season because of the constant procrastination on deals where Levy was involved. He was at his wits end with his leadership colleagues who weren't performing.

You can definitely see why we tried to get Trevor Birch in to run that entire football operations function a year later.

I wasn’t impressed with Hitchin
But all manager would love players the club may not be able to afford
Its life

 

[Raziel]

Serious question here.

Who were these good players in 2018 (?) that Poch turned down? Nobody has ever been able to give me a single, credible name but like to use the narrative you just did.

The only half credible name I heard was Tielemans, and I'm not even sure he was available for anything but a loan.

I still hold the opinion that our recruitment team and Levy couldn't close a door that year and let their manager down badly.

Tielemans was one, and as @Bedfordspurs said, Hoddle (amongst other ex players) has confirmed/was adamant that Poch was offered players that window.

Personally, don't think it would made a difference, Poch's big choices that he got (later) were GLC, Ndombele, Clark & Sessegnon, literally/statistically the worse window the club has ever had.

We seemingly are better organized/run now, and the balance between club & manager seems right for now (none of this club signing flimflam)

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Tielemans was one, and as @Bedfordspurs said, Hoddle (amongst other ex players) has confirmed/was adamant that Poch was offered players that window.

Personally, don't think it would made a difference, Poch's big choices that he got (later) were GLC, Ndombele, Clark & Sessegnon, literally/statistically the worse window the club has ever had.

We seemingly are better organized/run now, and the balance between club & manager seems right for now (none of this club signing flimflam)

We also know that many managers wanted players that we couldn’t get/afford/attract
At last now we’re structured for the next guy

 

[Muttley]

Tielemans was one, and as @Bedfordspurs said, Hoddle (amongst other ex players) has confirmed/was adamant that Poch was offered players that window.

Personally, don't think it would made a difference, Poch's big choices that he got (later) were GLC, Ndombele, Clark & Sessegnon, literally/statistically the worse window the club has ever had.

We seemingly are better organized/run now, and the balance between club & manager seems right for now (none of this club signing flimflam)

What's the reality is that the recruitment team were the ones that presented the names you listed to our manager. Hitchen's team were the ones that didn't do the due diligence on these players. Was Poch supposed to go down to the level of detail to find the sort of physical and mental flaws that eventually emerged?

The one out of the 4 you mention I wanted most was Sess. In fact I wanted him 2 years prior as I trust our club to look after these kids as they physically develop. We don't overplay them like Fulham did to Ryan. It was criminal how they piled on the number of games to a 16-18 year old. He clearly passed a medical, but there was no way we could have tested for what was coming next. He was exactly the quality of player we needed but had been physically broken by Fulham.

I'm not absolving Poch from the blame, but he would have seen things like how Ndombele destroyed City the season before we put the money down. Recruitment was his part time role as he was running the first team. It was Hitchen's full time role.

We are definitely better organised now. Paratici was great for this club and the new regime look to know what they're doing. Ange will be better supported than Poch ever was.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Tielemans was one, and as @Bedfordspurs said, Hoddle (amongst other ex players) has confirmed/was adamant that Poch was offered players that window.

Personally, don't think it would made a difference, Poch's big choices that he got (later) were GLC, Ndombele, Clark & Sessegnon, literally/statistically the worse window the club has ever had.

We seemingly are better organized/run now, and the balance between club & manager seems right for now (none of this club signing flimflam)

I don't think he wanted Clarke at all (evidenced by him immediately getting loaned out (Poch never loaned out players he actually wanted).

Ndombele also started well for him. That one may well have turned out very different had Poch not been sacked. Sessegnon was a good player just unlucky with injuries. Lo Celso - I give you that one, he was just a poor player. Ever club in the world signs a few poor players, it happens.

Absolutely mad though that we sacked the manager only a dozen PL games into the season with the manager hardly having the chance to use any of those new signings he had finally been allowed to make after going 18 months without any new signings.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

What's the reality is that the recruitment team were the ones that presented the names you listed to our manager. Hitchen's team were the ones that didn't do the due diligence on these players. Was Poch supposed to go down to the level of detail to find the sort of physical and mental flaws that eventually emerged?

The one out of the 4 you mention I wanted most was Sess. In fact I wanted him 2 years prior as I trust our club to look after these kids as they physically develop. We don't overplay them like Fulham did to Ryan. It was criminal how they piled on the number of games to a 16-18 year old. He clearly passed a medical, but there was no way we could have tested for what was coming next. He was exactly the quality of player we needed but had been physically broken by Fulham.

I'm not absolving Poch from the blame, but he would have seen things like how Ndombele destroyed City the season before we put the money down. Recruitment was his part time role as he was running the first team. It was Hitchen's full time role.

We are definitely better organised now. Paratici was great for this club and the new regime look to know what they're doing. Ange will be better supported than Poch ever was.

Everyone of the big investments we made that summer was a great fit IMO technically
But it doesn’t always work
It’s why I’m glad Ange takes an active role now and I’d be stunned if Poch didn’t do too

 

[billyiddo]

Our recruitment team was virtually non existent and it's output was diabolical right through from when we moved on from Mitchell, up until we appointed Paratici - none of the head coaches during this period can be held accountable for what we done or didn't do in the market, the club failed them by not having a proper transfer department in place. I'm sure they would all have loved to have seen the benefits of the type of set up we have in place now, however they had to make do with Hitchens black book of contacts from French football

 

[Muttley]

Everyone of the big investments we made that summer was a great fit IMO technically
But it doesn’t always work
It’s why I’m glad Ange takes an active role now and I’d be stunned if Poch didn’t do too

Our recruitment team was virtually non existent and it's output was diabolical right through from when we moved on from Mitchell, up until we appointed Paratici - none of the head coaches can be held accountable for what we done in the market over this period, the club failed them

We also shifted our football philosophy to that of Jose, Nuno and Conte with "Poch" signings.

I said this at the time but Conte was always going to fail as Paratici was already buying players for Ange or another manager of that ilk. They were all front foot, progressive signings that were wasted on Conte's counter attacking turgid football. It's why they're doing well with Ange.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We also shifted our football philosophy to that of Jose, Nuno and Conte with "Poch" signings.

I said this at the time but Conte was always going to fail as Paratici was already buying players for Ange or another manager of that ilk. They were all front foot, progressive signings that were wasted on Conte's counter attacking turgid football. It's why they're doing well with Ange.

It was a mess
I think we have changed.. a lot
A hell of a lot
Form the outside it looks like we have a plan and finally one that includes development of the talent pool that exists within
It will bear fruit too imo

 

[Muttley]

It was a mess
I think we have changed.. a lot
A hell of a lot
Form the outside it looks like we have a plan and finally one that includes development of the talent pool that exists within
It will bear fruit too imo

I can imagine Paratici had a wry smile to himself last week when Spence signed his new deal.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I can imagine Paratici had a wry smile to himself last week when Spence signed his new deal.

That was a levy deal don’t forget

 

[thfcsteff]

I don't think he wanted Clarke at all (evidenced by him immediately getting loaned out (Poch never loaned out players he actually wanted).

Ndombele also started well for him. That one may well have turned out very different had Poch not been sacked. Sessegnon was a good player just unlucky with injuries. Lo Celso - I give you that one, he was just a poor player. Ever club in the world signs a few poor players, it happens.

Absolutely mad though that we sacked the manager only a dozen PL games into the season with the manager hardly having the chance to use any of those new signings he had finally been allowed to make after going 18 months without any new signings.

He didn't want Clarke, and I believe Sess was also a 'club' signing...N'dombele and Lo Celso should not count against him. He had no time to work with them and, as you said too, there is every chance he'd have found the player in N'dombele. Your last sentence says everything; it is indisputable IMO...I know you and I have also raised the Grealish debacle before...lastly, if anyone wants to speculate as to Poch not necessarily getting who he wanted, look no further than Mane and Winaldjum. I remember my mate thinking we'd lose Poch because Mitchell walked in virtual disgust at our refusal to pay the wages for those two...

 

[thfcsteff]

That was a levy deal don’t forget

Laugh as you will, it certainly was not a deal that particular manager pushed for. I understand what Paratici was doing (because it was his job to make those sorts of club signings) but Spence was not signed by Conte, so...

 

[thfcsteff]

We also shifted our football philosophy to that of Jose, Nuno and Conte with "Poch" signings.

I said this at the time but Conte was always going to fail as Paratici was already buying players for Ange or another manager of that ilk. They were all front foot, progressive signings that were wasted on Conte's counter attacking turgid football. It's why they're doing well with Ange.

My single biggest disappointment at Conte was that he stuck around and took it. I genuinely thought that if he did not get exactly what he wanted, he'd walk. Once it became clear that he was going to hang in despite not getting what he specifically wanted, he ceased to be the guy I thought he was and instead became another money-sucking trumper. As for the disgraceful way he tried to throw everyone under the bus at the end, well, the only allowance I'd ever give him is he was still grieving the loss of Ventrone...