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Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

ricky2tricky4city said:
Well I think it's quite possible that we could finish 8th and not win a cup :)
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Yeah this is the thing, I do think most would genuinely be happy with a cup win and a more mediocre league position (winning a cup would get you European football anyway) but as things stand we don't know if we will win a cup, and the odds would be more likely we won't than will at the moment.

But, we are still very much involved in all cups and not too badly placed in the league - if we were to get some better luck on the injury front second part of the season (everyone gets injuries but we've been down to the bare bones for more than one period under Ange) things could turn out more positive....
 
Bishop said:
In the grand scheme I think consistency of league performance says more than a run in a cup. I think the win a cup any cup cadre are probably trying to shake off the easy banter but also possibly believe a cup win adds something to the mental of the players and the squad.

I'm not sure if I agree completely, I think it's a bit more dependent on the cup itself. Winning the EL is something else entirely to me than winning the CC and not because of the potential reward but the challenge, the adversity required and the quality of the opposition faced and obviously the prestige of winning a major competition in Europe.
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I do agree to your overall point, and winning a Europa League trophy would be immense with t some really good teams in there and the prestige it brings.

But, there are challenges in the League cup too - you have to beat at least one, sometimes two of the big boys in the latter stages of that competition and in the semis/final they play a much more full strength team than in the earlier rounds. For me winning that would still be an accomplishment, I remember being at the Chelsea final we won and that was quite a battle and really felt like a hard earned cup win and it meant something so if we were to do that again I will not be downplaying it....
 
Bishop said:
In the grand scheme I think consistency of league performance says more than a run in a cup. I think the win a cup any cup cadre are probably trying to shake off the easy banter but also possibly believe a cup win adds something to the mental of the players and the squad.

I'm not sure if I agree completely, I think it's a bit more dependent on the cup itself. Winning the EL is something else entirely to me than winning the CC and not because of the potential reward but the challenge, the adversity required and the quality of the opposition faced and obviously the prestige of winning a major competition in Europe.
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Very much agree
But do believe in cup football you can get by with elements of luck you won’t get in the league as generally evens out
The way the European comps are now structured it’s full of lifelines for any decent side to remain in it as long as possible
That’s so different to the prem where you don’t get a second chance
 
harr1984 said:
I do agree to your overall point, and winning a Europa League trophy would be immense with t some really good teams in there and the prestige it brings.

But, there are challenges in the League cup too - you have to beat at least one, sometimes two of the big boys in the latter stages of that competition and in the semis/final they play a much more full strength team than in the earlier rounds. For me winning that would still be an accomplishment, I remember being at the Chelsea final we won and that was quite a battle and really felt like a hard earned cup win and it meant something so if we were to do that again I will not be downplaying it....
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I've been thinking about the EL.
If you strip it down, I don't think the teams in it this year are that strong. Plus there is the bonus that no CL heavyweights can drop in. I know United have a new manager and are a big club but you'd rather them than eg Chelsea or Villa, United are still a mess.

Cups can be a lottery BUT at least this is two legged all the way to the final, so an iffy leg can still be recovered.

Finally though, we all bemoan the financial imbalance and disadvantage we face in the PL when in this tournament that's flipped on its head, we are the moneyed club, the big spenders.
 
harr1984 said:
I do agree to your overall point, and winning a Europa League trophy would be immense with t some really good teams in there and the prestige it brings.

But, there are challenges in the League cup too - you have to beat at least one, sometimes two of the big boys in the latter stages of that competition and in the semis/final they play a much more full strength team than in the earlier rounds. For me winning that would still be an accomplishment, I remember being at the Chelsea final we won and that was quite a battle and really felt like a hard earned cup win and it meant something so if we were to do that again I will not be downplaying it....
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I deffo wouldn't downplay it and we are hardly in the position to poopoo any actual competition wins. I'm just not sure i'd take the CC, finish 8th and be happy with what we got this season.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
I've been thinking about the EL.
If you strip it down, I don't think the teams in it this year are that strong. Plus there is the bonus that no CL heavyweights can drop in. I know United have a new manager and are a big club but you'd rather them than eg Chelsea or Villa, United are still a mess.

Cups can be a lottery BUT at least this is two legged all the way to the final, so an iffy leg can still be recovered.

Finally though, we all bemoan the financial imbalance and disadvantage we face in the PL when in this tournament that's flipped on its head, we are the moneyed club, the big spenders.
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The teams arent very strong
You can look at the league position of most of the teams and see that

It’s why we’re favourites although Bilbao knowing The final is at their ground will want to be there
 
We've had the cups discussion many times.

Getting back to the subject of the thread, Angelos Postecoglou, why on earth is he running certain players into the ground?

They are running on empty after 5 minutes, nearly dead after 60, walking around in a daze, and he refuses to sub them.

Spence is a very capable player with decent experience, give him a chance. Likewise Gray, a decent player who has shown last year he has a lot to give.

Get them on the pitch for their development AND to give Porro/BJ/Son/whoever a rest because we need these players to survive and play some part in our next 11 games; those guys are gonna be injured very soon and are too tired to perform anyway.

Ange is shooting himself in the foot by playing exhausted players. Regardless of formation etc, just choosing exhausted players is a crazy thing to do.
 
Bullet said:
We've had the cups discussion many times.

Getting back to the subject of the thread, Angelos Postecoglou, why on earth is he running certain players into the ground?

They are running on empty after 5 minutes, nearly dead after 60, walking around in a daze, and he refuses to sub them.

Spence is a very capable player with decent experience, give him a chance. Likewise Gray, a decent player who has shown last year he has a lot to give.

Get them on the pitch for their development AND to give Porro/BJ/Son/whoever a rest because we need these players to survive and play some part in our next 11 games; those guys are gonna be injured very soon and are too tired to perform anyway.

Ange is shooting himself in the foot by playing exhausted players. Regardless of formation etc, just choosing exhausted players is a crazy thing to do.
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The Spence thing is confusing to me. Him not even being brought on when Fulham went down to 10 men... 11 v 11 maybe Porro's passing ability was seen as too important to sub him, particularly with Romero out. At best marginal. But against 10 men that too went out the window.

Perhaps Spence isn't fully fit? Included on the bench because we have room? Not strange to have him on the bench if he can't even do 10 minutes.

For Gray, Bergvall, Lankshear and Moore I think perhaps an important factor is what Ange sees as best for their development. Difficult to know from the outside.

But right now, in the upcoming games (and weeks after that) I think he has to trust Spence, Gray and Bergvall more, perhaps also Lankshear. At least some of them. And we have to hope that the settling in and development that's happened so far will give results on the pitch.
 
braineclipse said:
The Spence thing is confusing to me. Him not even being brought on when Fulham went down to 10 men... 11 v 11 maybe Porro's passing ability was seen as too important to sub him, particularly with Romero out. At best marginal. But against 10 men that too went out the window.

Perhaps Spence isn't fully fit? Included on the bench because we have room? Not strange to have him on the bench if he can't even do 10 minutes.

For Gray, Bergvall, Lankshear and Moore I think perhaps an important factor is what Ange sees as best for their development. Difficult to know from the outside.

But right now, in the upcoming games (and weeks after that) I think he has to trust Spence, Gray and Bergvall more, perhaps also Lankshear. At least some of them. And we have to hope that the settling in and development that's happened so far will give results on the pitch.
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Spence came on vs city
Lad assume he is fit because of that alone
 
braineclipse said:
Perhaps Spence isn't fully fit? Included on the bench because we have room? Not strange to have him on the bench if he can't even do 10 minutes.
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I think he was stripped off and ready to come on during Sunday's game, only to be told to sit back down once the sending off happened. According to The View From The Lane podcast (I think...I listened to a few yesterday!), he didn't look best pleased.
 
Mikey10 said:
I think he was stripped off and ready to come on during Sunday's game, only to be told to sit back down once the sending off happened. According to The View From The Lane podcast (I think...I listened to a few yesterday!), he didn't look best pleased.
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Cheers for the info.

Seems a strange one to me. Would have thought those would have been good conditions for him to come on in.
 
Mikey10 said:
I think he was stripped off and ready to come on during Sunday's game, only to be told to sit back down once the sending off happened. According to The View From The Lane podcast (I think...I listened to a few yesterday!), he didn't look best pleased.
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Agreed
We saw that from the south stand
Was so bizarre
 
Just heard that after 51 games ange spike have us 6th
That’s based on when he joined of course
Is anyone expecting more
 
I wonder if Levy will try to get Spurs also into basketball, Ange would be the perfect basketball coach for a basket case club.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Just heard that after 51 games ange spike have us 6th
That’s based on when he joined of course
Is anyone expecting more
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Yes, because it's not just 51 games. This squad build started in about 2022, we have spent an absolute fortune in the transfer market and have an amazing pipeline of youngsters.

The tactical system on the pitch is appearing to be a problem, and a root cause of why things are sub-optimal. It is the elephant in the room as to why we're not higher than 6th.
 
Muttley said:
Yes, because it's not just 51 games. This squad build started in about 2022, we have spent an absolute fortune in the transfer market and have an amazing pipeline of youngsters.

The tactical system on the pitch is appearing to be a problem, and a root cause of why things are sub-optimal. It is the elephant in the room as to why we're not higher than 6th.
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A description from the extra inch podcast that's also been used here before is that Ange's system requires all the parts to be working to be good. Similarly to a lot of top coaches like Pep, Klopp and Conte.

To me a bit different to for example Mourinho (when good), Emery and other (also top coaches) who are more "no matter what happens we'll be in a situation to grind out a result" with their systems.

We have been assembling this squad for quite a while now as you say, we have spent quite a lot of money. But we have gone for a fairly long term squad building approach. If there were no further changes (hypothetically) this squad should be better in 3 years than it is now.

When injuries hit hard and the fixture list gets congested that will leave an Ange team with this squad building approach suffering. Probably more than say if we had Emery in charge for example.

I like that approach. I think that's our best way to build something that will be special. And wanting real success from our financial situation and the starting point pre Ange we have to build something special I think. I think the ceiling over time is higher with that approach.

That's how players like Gray, Bergvall, Spence, Moore, Odobert etc will learn to play well in this system. That's how players like Udogie, Johnson, Dragusin and Sarr can take further steps playing this system. Not abandoning it when things get tough, but sticking to it, learning and developing to become key players for us.
 
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