Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[Muttley]

A description from the extra inch podcast that's also been used here before is that Ange's system requires all the parts to be working to be good. Similarly to a lot of top coaches like Pep, Klopp and Conte.

To me a bit different to for example Mourinho (when good), Emery and other (also top coaches) who are more "no matter what happens we'll be in a situation to grind out a result" with their systems.

We have been assembling this squad for quite a while now as you say, we have spent quite a lot of money. But we have gone for a fairly long term squad building approach. If there were no further changes (hypothetically) this squad should be better in 3 years than it is now.

When injuries hit hard and the fixture list gets congested that will leave an Ange team with this squad building approach suffering. Probably more than say if we had Emery in charge for example.

I like that approach. I think that's our best way to build something that will be special. And wanting real success from our financial situation and the starting point pre Ange we have to build something special I think. I think the ceiling over time is higher with that approach.

That's how players like Gray, Bergvall, Spence, Moore, Odobert etc will learn to play well in this system. That's how players like Udogie, Johnson, Dragusin and Sarr can take further steps playing this system. Not abandoning it when things get tough, but sticking to it, learning and developing to become key players for us.

My guess is it's probably easier to set your stall out and insist your team plays the way you eventually want it to play from day 1.

I genuinely believe that it is harder to look at the skillsets you currently have and then plot a path to your go-to system. Poch did that. He didn't really have the players for the 4-2-3-1 he really wanted. In the 3 behind Harry he first of all had them playing to their positions. He then changed it so they could move very laterally, especially Eriksen and Dele. He also got Dele to play as a false 9 so Kane could become one of the 3. He also changed midfield. He moved Dier in there and got him to become the 3rd defender allowing Toby and Jan to spread wide. However, he then brought in Wanyama who would spend way more time ahead of Dembele than Dier did. Then we finally had the goals flowing and the meanest defence in the league.

I'm still trying to convince myself that Ange is going to get us there. It is really hard when you see opposition teams dancing down our wings and creating chances for fun because of his tactics. Ange literally watched Fulham do that and never once made a single tactical change to nullify it and get us back in the ascendency. He let Silva cut our supply lines and we were reduced to 3 shots on target in almost 100 mins. Saying that, I'm not sure Ange will ever be bad enough like Poch became and Jose and Conte were to see a meltdown. He seems to be creating a culture and is unlikely to lose the changing room, especially now we've removed some of the older heads that didn't play nicely with previous managers.

However, I do think the the other reasons like age of squad and gaps, injury profiles etc stop us from really teasing apart the questionable tactics too much. There is always an excuse for why Ange can't have his perfect tactical execution. I'm not sure we're looking in the right place at times and think he should be under more scrutiny for his tactics.

 

[lurker of old]

I like that approach. I think that's our best way to build something that will be special.
Or we could simply spend more on wages , buy better players and have a deeper squad. A team which is special is a team which wins things, and the evidence so far this season is that this team looks a million miles from competing to win anything. Have we spent "an absolute fortune"? Chelsea have, but not so sure about us, and I just don't buy this "we'll be great when the youngsters come through" -it's nonsense. By then other more established players will have moved on so the end result is no progress, just an endless cycle of coming 5th or 6th if we do really well.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I like that approach. I think that's our best way to build something that will be special.
Or we could simply spend more on wages , buy better players and have a deeper squad. A team which is special is a team which wins things, and the evidence so far this season is that this team looks a million miles from competing to win anything. Have we spent "an absolute fortune"? Chelsea have, but not so sure about us, and I just don't buy this "we'll be great when the youngsters come through" -it's nonsense. By then other more established players will have moved on so the end result is no progress, just an endless cycle of coming 5th or 6th if we do really well.

Chelsea brought unproven players for huge fees
The only player they brought in their huge spurge who has actually won anything I believe is Fernandez and he doesn’t even start in their best line up
We shouldn’t really be referencing what other clubs have done now IMO because the only didn’t buy anyone are actually top of the league and are flying

 

[Bishop]

Chelsea brought unproven players for huge fees
The only player they brought in their huge spurge who has actually won anything I believe is Fernandez and he doesn’t even start in their best line up
We shouldn’t really be referencing what other clubs have done now IMO because the only didn’t buy anyone are actually top of the league and are flying

They bought them last year and have had time to settle. They were also starting from a better place ourselves in the first place. If we did what Liverpool did this season we'd probably be in the bottom half of the table.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

They bought them last year and have had time to settle. They were also starting from a better place ourselves in the first place. If we did what Liverpool did this season we'd probably be in the bottom half of the table.

Maybe
But I wanted to make sure the caveat is there that they didn’t buy proven

 

[Muttley]

They bought them last year and have had time to settle. They were also starting from a better place ourselves in the first place. If we did what Liverpool did this season we'd probably be in the bottom half of the table.

Maybe
But I wanted to make sure the caveat is there that they didn’t buy proven

Liverpool have got a lot right for a long time on the recruitment side under their current owners. They've not really bought more than 2 senior players in any window for many years. There have been no massively bloated squads or major overhauls required. They just efficiently churn whilst picking up some talented youngsters to go with their own academy. They also pick up a few quid on sales.

We are now very close to that model ourselves in my opinion. It may not feel it yet, but we are.

I think a typical Liverpool signing is between the ages of 21 and 25 and on an upward trajectory - Szoboszlai, Mac Allister, Gravenberch, Nunez, Gakpo.

Like them, we need to forget the Thiago's and Chiesa's and just focus on this same strategy.

 

[braineclipse]

My guess is it's probably easier to set your stall out and insist your team plays the way you eventually want it to play from day 1.

I genuinely believe that it is harder to look at the skillsets you currently have and then plot a path to your go-to system. Poch did that. He didn't really have the players for the 4-2-3-1 he really wanted. In the 3 behind Harry he first of all had them playing to their positions. He then changed it so they could move very laterally, especially Eriksen and Dele. He also got Dele to play as a false 9 so Kane could become one of the 3. He also changed midfield. He moved Dier in there and got him to become the 3rd defender allowing Toby and Jan to spread wide. However, he then brought in Wanyama who would spend way more time ahead of Dembele than Dier did. Then we finally had the goals flowing and the meanest defence in the league.

I'm still trying to convince myself that Ange is going to get us there. It is really hard when you see opposition teams dancing down our wings and creating chances for fun because of his tactics. Ange literally watched Fulham do that and never once made a single tactical change to nullify it and get us back in the ascendency. He let Silva cut our supply lines and we were reduced to 3 shots on target in almost 100 mins. Saying that, I'm not sure Ange will ever be bad enough like Poch became and Jose and Conte were to see a meltdown. He seems to be creating a culture and is unlikely to lose the changing room, especially now we've removed some of the older heads that didn't play nicely with previous managers.

However, I do think the the other reasons like age of squad and gaps, injury profiles etc stop us from really teasing apart the questionable tactics too much. There is always an excuse for why Ange can't have his perfect tactical execution. I'm not sure we're looking in the right place at times and think he should be under more scrutiny for his tactics.

Ange has showed that his tactics can work in different circumstances, also in big games. The key is consistency and having a squad that can execute that. I think he should be given time to find solutions for that in the way he wants to. Which mostly seems to be with "his" tactical setup.

 

[braineclipse]

I like that approach. I think that's our best way to build something that will be special.
Or we could simply spend more on wages , buy better players and have a deeper squad. A team which is special is a team which wins things, and the evidence so far this season is that this team looks a million miles from competing to win anything. Have we spent "an absolute fortune"? Chelsea have, but not so sure about us, and I just don't buy this "we'll be great when the youngsters come through" -it's nonsense. By then other more established players will have moved on so the end result is no progress, just an endless cycle of coming 5th or 6th if we do really well.

I don't think that "simply" solution is viable. We don't have enough money to make that work imo. We need to develop players because that's more affordable and can get us players that end up being better than players we could sign.

We would essentially never have been able to sign peak Walker, Alli, Kane, Son etc. But we could develop them into becoming those players. We can again.

If the youngsters develop and by then others will have moved on they will have done so with us bringing in a hefty sale fee that can then be reinvested. Exception being Son, but he's not exactly carrying the team now anyway.

We now have a lot of very talented young players lined up. Not just one or two we're hoping will make it (as has often been the case before).

 

[braineclipse]

Liverpool have got a lot right for a long time on the recruitment side under their current owners. They've not really bought more than 2 senior players in any window for many years. There have been no massively bloated squads or major overhauls required. They just efficiently churn whilst picking up some talented youngsters to go with their own academy. They also pick up a few quid on sales.

We are now very close to that model ourselves in my opinion. It may not feel it yet, but we are.

I think a typical Liverpool signing is between the ages of 21 and 25 and on an upward trajectory - Szoboszlai, Mac Allister, Gravenberch, Nunez, Gakpo.

Like them, we need to forget the Thiago's and Chiesa's and just focus on this same strategy.

Fully agreed.

Where we mostly went wrong in later stage Poch and Mourinho is that we stopped making those smart longer term deals. Improved when Paratici came in and has continued to be good. But it takes some years to really see the benefits of that.

We are already seeing the benefits of Udogie, Sarr and Kulusevski signed fairly early under Paratici. But we need more and are trying to make that happen.

 

[Muttley]

Ange has showed that his tactics can work in different circumstances, also in big games. The key is consistency and having a squad that can execute that. I think he should be given time to find solutions for that in the way he wants to. Which mostly seems to be with "his" tactical setup.

I think a load of us believe that he needs time. I've already stated that the next big checkpoint would be after 10-12 games next season. Most likely he completes season 3 before the checkpoint after that. That will probably be the deal maker or breaker.

To me that is mutually exclusive to having an opinion on what he is doing or not doing well now. We can't just hide behind the ENIC/chairmen narrative, the salaries and transfer budget levels and all these next generation stats we see as fans. Personally, I think Ange should be doing a slightly better job in his tactical setup and with his in-game management in this current period. We are now 18 months in with most of these players and manager. Something might click soon though.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think a load of us believe that he needs time. I've already stated that the next big checkpoint would be after 10-12 games next season. Most likely he completes season 3 before the checkpoint after that. That will probably be the deal maker or breaker.

To me that is mutually exclusive to having an opinion on what he is doing or not doing well now. We can't just hide behind the ENIC/chairmen narrative, the salaries and transfer budget levels and all these next generation stats we see as fans. Personally, I think Ange should be doing a slightly better job in his tactical setup and with his in-game management in this current period. We are now 18 months in with most of these players and manager. Something might click soon though.

Your joking
I have heard fans and even moderately reputable pods say if he doesnt win the next few games he should be sacked by Monday

 

[Muttley]

Fully agreed.

Where we mostly went wrong in later stage Poch and Mourinho is that we stopped making those smart longer term deals. Improved when Paratici came in and has continued to be good. But it takes some years to really see the benefits of that.

We are already seeing the benefits of Udogie, Sarr and Kulusevski signed fairly early under Paratici. But we need more and are trying to make that happen.

Was looking at your comment about the latency between signing for the club and when we feel the real benefit of the signings.

I'm trying to figure out who hits those levels next, knowing that it's probably not Gray, Bergval, Moore. They feel like the ones after that.

All I could come up with was Phillips, Devine, Scarlett as they hit their earl twenties.

 

[Muttley]

Your joking
I have heard fans and even moderately reputable pods say if he doesnt win the next few games he should be sacked by Monday

I get it. We have a recent history of managers losing the changing room. Even Hugo alluded in his book to Jose losing a big section of his squad whilst in charge. Massive implications that Nuno and Conte did as well.

I don't see one hint of that yet with Ange. In fact, I believe we have a growing culture of belief and even if those bad results come, I don't think it is the same scenario.

We had toxic managers and we had toxic players previously. Let's hope that is not the case this time around.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Was looking at your comment about the latency between signing for the club and when we feel the real benefit of the signings.

I'm trying to figure out who hits those levels next, knowing that it's probably not Gray, Bergval, Moore. They feel like the ones after that.

All I could come up with was Phillips, Devine, Scarlett as they hit their earl twenties.

Sad fact is that, any player who is ambitious wants success now as tomorrow never comes. That's why for every Bergvall, Moore etc there has to be a bonafide first-teamer bought who is top class to keep people wanting to sign for us or stay with us...

Kane having not won a trophy with us all that time will inevitably be a noose around the club's neck when it comes to looking ambitious enough to attract top talent - until we win a trophy...otherwise, the refrain will be "I don't want to waste my best years and end up like Kane"

Sorry, i know he's not your favourite player, but you can swap Kane for Bale or any of our other recent 'top' players. Kane though stands out the most because he stayed with us the longest and bucked the trend of the others who were attracted away.

 

[Muttley]

Sad fact is that, any player who is ambitious wants success now as tomorrow never comes. That's why for every Bergvall, Moore etc there has to be a bonafide first-teamer bought who is top class to keep people wanting to sign for us or stay with us...

Kane having not won a trophy with us all that time will inevitably be a noose around the club's neck when it comes to looking ambitious enough to attract top talent - until we win a trophy...otherwise, the refrain will be "I don't want to waste my best years and end up like Kane"

Sorry, i know he's not your favourite player, but you can swap Kane for Bale or any of our other recent 'top' players. Kane though stands out the most because he stayed with us the longest and bucked the trend of the others who were attracted away.

I think we were talking about the process from signing with the club and being at your optimum in the first team.

Kulu was a great example. Got off to a fast start, but faded and got a couple of injuries. He didn't looks so great out on the right and then suddenly moves inside and can now be our talisman. That is a 2-3 year cycle.

Ditto Sarr. Signed and stayed on loan. Then had a breakthrough season with Conte and got more involved with the 1st team. Then had a stop-start season with Ange last season, but is really looking like a really good player recently. He's matured like crazy. That's another 3 year cycle.

I'm not sure it's any different from what we saw with KDB or Salah in their earlier careers. Kane as well. Liverpool have certainly seen it with Gravenberch over 18 months.

So I'm not sure this is true "Sad fact is that, any player who is ambitious wants success now as tomorrow never comes." I think players stick around when they have belief and like the direction of travel, even if they are not in the team. We're nowhere near where we got to with Kane. We are probably 3 years from that point with our best players. Kane should have gone at 26/27 in my opinion. His heart wasn't in it and he wasn't pulling on the shirt with the same passion as before. He was as much the reason why we didn't win trophies as well as the victim of it. He didn't have the winning mentality even though he had the abilities. He also shouldn't have appointed his dingdonghead of a brother to be his agent.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I think we were talking about the process from signing with the club and being at your optimum in the first team.

Kulu was a great example. Got off to a fast start, but faded and got a couple of injuries. He didn't looks so great out on the right and then suddenly moves inside and can now be our talisman. That is a 2-3 year cycle.

Ditto Sarr. Signed and stayed on loan. Then had a breakthrough season with Conte and got more involved with the 1st team. Then had a stop-start season with Ange last season, but is really looking like a really good player recently. He's matured like crazy. That's another 3 year cycle.

I'm not sure it's any different from what we saw with KDB or Salah in their earlier careers. Kane as well. Liverpool have certainly seen it with Gravenberch over 18 months.

So I'm not sure this is true "Sad fact is that, any player who is ambitious wants success now as tomorrow never comes." I think players stick around when they have belief and like the direction of travel, even if they are not in the team. We're nowhere near where we got to with Kane. We are probably 3 years from that point with our best players. Kane should have gone at 26/27 in my opinion. His heart wasn't in it and he wasn't pulling on the shirt with the same passion as before. He was as much the reason why we didn't win trophies as well as the victim of it. He didn't have the winning mentality even though he had the abilities. He also shouldn't have appointed his dingdonghead of a brother to be his agent.

My point is we seem to be much more comfortable in these "building from the ground up" cycles and less so in the "OK we have a good team/squad we just need to go the extra mile to properly capitalise": that takes bravery AND money, well we know how that goes...
I worry we will find it much harder to get into that cycle we had at times with Poch until we do actually get over the line: why join us if you know when it gets to that point we always retreat into our shells (for whatever reason at the given time)? Those really ambitious and good will more likely pass imo, there are better options out there: even Real Madrid have stolen a march on scouting and buying young with great potential..

Wrt Kane, i think his heart started sinking with us as soon as he signed the contract and saw us actually go a whole year without buying any proper re-inforcements for a squad that had busted a gut to keep us top 4 even when we'd had to play at Wembley. I think a few bodies and minds went after that 2018 summer actually, not just Kane...he is as much to blame for anyone with the lack of trophies, he's also the main person who allowed that to be a string possibility though.: great strikers don't come cheap - and we had one of the best fall into our laps for free!

 

[billyiddo]

I don't think that "simply" solution is viable. We don't have enough money to make that work imo. We need to develop players because that's more affordable and can get us players that end up being better than players we could sign.

We would essentially never have been able to sign peak Walker, Alli, Kane, Son etc. But we could develop them into becoming those players. We can again.

If the youngsters develop and by then others will have moved on they will have done so with us bringing in a hefty sale fee that can then be reinvested. Exception being Son, but he's not exactly carrying the team now anyway.

We now have a lot of very talented young players lined up. Not just one or two we're hoping will make it (as has often been the case before).

We've just spent the last GHod knows how long painfully trying to rid the squad of our ready made squad signings that didn't work out - obviously that's not to say buying more established players is inherently a bad move but the pitfalls are severely debilitating if you get things wrong.

 

[SteveAWOL]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1864253534402711651

 

[DeanoAustin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1864253534402711651

Hardly conclusive this, is it? We ran more against Palace and Ipswich in two absolute stinkers than against Villa in what was arguably our best performance of the season, maybe City aside. We ran the least against Saudi Sportswashing Machine and were the better side in that game.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Hardly conclusive this, is it? We ran more against Palace and Ipswich in two absolute stinkers than against Villa in what was arguably our best performance of the season, maybe City aside. We ran the least against Saudi Sportswashing Machine and were the better side in that game.

The games we win we seem to rest more and pace ourselves better
The games we lose we chase shadows wastefully