Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[Raziel]

How Neto would have worked out with us, who knows. Would have been nice to check, right?
Odebert was the player we bought instead. That;s quite a drop down in experience/ability from Neto would you not agree? I think it's quite likely the wages needed to get Odebert were quite a lot lower. I'm sure there were others between Neto's level and Odebert's, but again, it seems we like to go for the 'bargain' version of targets so we can more likely make a profit selling when they overperform and it looks like they'll outgrow us (and our ambition).

Eze is still at Palace because very few of our competitors need him/his profile. If we wanted him, we could have bid for him and paid the requisite wages/fees and he would have come.

Mate

- Solanke is not a bargin, neither was Richi, neither was Maddison, neither was Gray or Johnson
- VDV was the "cheap" option, funny I don't hear that mentioned anymore
- I like Neto, but he was too high a risk, we could not afford to pay 50M+ for him, give him 160K/week and a 5-7 year contract and have him break down, it's just a risk management decision. And in hindsight if Davies and Dragusin are breaking down, Neto would be long done.

Eze is Eze, maybe if we paid Antony type money we could have got him, but would you? is he really that player? he's the new Zaha

And fair play to them.

My general point is that we went into the summer with certain needs if we were to push on. Fact is that we bought ONE first-teamer, i.e. one player who went bought you immediately knew would go straight into the first team. One!

Wilson started first game or two?

But either way, that's on the manager, he could have said no to Gray & Wilson and spent the 70M on someone else, he didn't. fudge he could have pushed Richi & one of Bissouma/Bentancur out of the dooer an bought 2 more 60M players

 

[Legohamster]

And fair play to them.

My general point is that we went into the summer with certain needs if we were to push on. Fact is that we bought ONE first-teamer, i.e. one player who went bought you immediately knew would go straight into the first team. One!

Of course, their contracted player, not a dig at palace at all.

Ange was happy enough with the business at the time, I think the only one that shocked him was Odobert.

Gray has the ability to be a first teamer and improve the team, he has given him zero minutes from the start in the league till he was forced to.

 

[harr1984]

I am on the Fence when it comes to Levy, but I am so bored with the Ange wasn't backed line
We brought the most promising player in the Championship and haven't started him once in the PL at CM since he joined despite moaning about player fatigue, he is only getting minutes now due to an injury crisis at the back
He got his first choice striker, which we paid over the odds for
Werner back on loan on high wages.
His choice of CB last Jan

Plus we took hits on players he did not want here anymore

The squad is far from perfect, but you can not do it all in one window.

Can't agree with this Lego, Ange is just better at towing the line than some previous managers. Agree the Solanke signing was his, but by his own admission that cost us on where else we could spend. Gray was another one he said we signed meaning we couldn't bring in established players elsewhere, and I actually think how Gray has been used will benefit him long term.

And you can't seriously tell me Werner back on loan is him being backed, you honestly think Ange sat down and said Werner is one of his top choices there?! He was a make do, paper over the cracks as we had other areas to invest in whilst also hoping Moore/Odobert emerges (which could still happen when back from injury).....

 

[Kompakted]

Yeah, but wouldn't pay the wages for the likes of Neto, Eze....but instead bought the likes of Odebert, Bergvall and Gray. I'm sure the wages of the ones we got were comparable to the wage demands of the likes of Eze, Neto...right?

Also, are you telling me if it was a case of you can have Werner or Neto, Ange would have chosen Werner?

I don't think wages with Neto was the issue, it was that he preferred to go to Chelsea.

Werner was signed for alongside Neto or ANother. Odebert was the player we quickly moved onto once Neto finalised the move to Chelsea.

Eze is a huge and comlicated deal for any club to do versus what he actually brings to the table - hence why he is still at Palace. We have Kulu and Maddison that do what he does already and signing Eze would have meant no Solanke and probably no Gray either.

Ange wanted Grey. He's literally just said in an interview that he weighed up signing Gray against using the funds to buy someone ready made but wouldn't be able to live with passing up signing someone of his potential. So in one breath you're saying "back the manager" and in the other you're saying "not on that decision"

 

[billyiddo]

Like I said mate, >130M spent on top of > 150M

63M striker while keeping previous 60M striker, meant team went from no backup CF, to upgrading existing and having backup
40M Championship young player of year that the manager has said in last week he was not willing to pass on, even for an established player
30M on tricky winger to add variety to wide attack

That's ignoring Vic, VDV, Udogie, Dragusin would all be playing their 2nd season in PL (so should improve)
Spence gets re-integrated
Bentancur come back expected

Injuries aside, that team should be better this year, even if you argued it was only enough to maintain status quo, that still isn't 11th with the same amount of losses only bettered by bottom 4 ..

We've spent over 400m euros since the summer he was appointed - that's 1.5 seasons ago... Some of those deals will have been the payments for Kulusevski/Porro etc which were deferred from earlier windows but there has been a significant spend either way.

 

[billyiddo]

So in one breath you're saying "back the manager" and in the other you're saying "not on that decision"

It's a common theme

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I don't think wages with Neto was the issue, it was that he preferred to go to Chelsea.

Werner was signed for alongside Neto or ANother. Odebert was the player we quickly moved onto once Neto finalised the move to Chelsea.

Eze is a huge and comlicated deal for any club to do versus what he actually brings to the table - hence why he is still at Palace. We have Kulu and Maddison that do what he does already and signing Eze would have meant no Solanke and probably no Gray either.

Ange wanted Grey. He's literally just said in an interview that he weighed up signing Gray against using the funds to buy someone ready made but wouldn't be able to live with passing up signing someone of his potential. So in one breath you're saying "back the manager" and in the other you're saying "not on that decision"

Neto was all about payment terms
Was widely reported at the time
Chelsea agreed to pay more up front

 

[glorygloryeze]

Of course, their contracted player, not a dig at palace at all.

Ange was happy enough with the business at the time, I think the only one that shocked him was Odobert.

Gray has the ability to be a first teamer and improve the team, he has given him zero minutes from the start in the league till he was forced to.

Apart from maybe Conte, have any of our managers ever NOT said they were "happy enough with our business at the time"??
We see this all the time and i'm sure it's contractual (or at least you lose some kind of payment etc) if you say otherwise

 

[Bishop]

Ange got 130M+ in summer, somewhere around 280M+ in 18 months

You think that is us being cheap?

Wages he said, wages. We don't pay top level wages for players. We might be willing to pay some decentish transfer fees but not the wages we aren't. Also that summer transfer figure is across many players, it's not quite the same as spending big money on fewer players of more quality.

 

[billyiddo]

Apart from maybe Conte, have any of our managers ever NOT said they were "happy enough with our business at the time"??
We see this all the time and i'm sure it's contractual (or at least you lose some kind of payment etc) if you say otherwise

Most managers that fail somewhere look to paint themselves as hard done by. Self preservation.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Mate

- Solanke is not a bargin, neither was Richi, neither was Maddison, neither was Gray or Johnson
- VDV was the "cheap" option, funny I don't hear that mentioned anymore
- I like Neto, but he was too high a risk, we could not afford to pay 50M+ for him, give him 160K/week and a 5-7 year contract and have him break down, it's just a risk management decision. And in hindsight if Davies and Dragusin are breaking down, Neto would be long done.

Eze is Eze, maybe if we paid Antony type money we could have got him, but would you? is he really that player? he's the new Zaha



Wilson started first game or two?

But either way, that's on the manager, he could have said no to Gray & Wilson and spent the 70M on someone else, he didn't. fudge he could have pushed Richi & one of Bissouma/Bentancur out of the dooer an bought 2 more 60M players

I can separate out how poorly Ange has been doing (for a long time now) from how he was/wasn't backed. You saying Odebert was an immediate first-teamer says it's far easier to appease you in terms of transfers than it woud be any perspective new coach who is good enough AND has a lot of ambition. Odebert was a first-teamer at Burnley: a decent punt for the future who should have been bought as a back-up option to a Neto-type of 'start now' winger. Again, i'm sure Odebert's wages are much cheaper too.

The fact is that we MIGHT stumble on a good coach but we will hit the same problems with our ownership: the fact they are prepared to pay BIG for a coach but NOT big wages for the coach or any of his transfer targets. Read last summer as almost any summer after the coach iniotially does well and says ok back me some more.
Even with Conte, who was decently backed, we couldn't get him the RWB his system craved, instead dilly-dallying on buying Spence who was NOT the profile Cont wanted (hence his comment on it being a 'club buy'...)

 

[glorygloryeze]

I don't think wages with Neto was the issue, it was that he preferred to go to Chelsea.

Werner was signed for alongside Neto or ANother. Odebert was the player we quickly moved onto once Neto finalised the move to Chelsea.

Eze is a huge and comlicated deal for any club to do versus what he actually brings to the table - hence why he is still at Palace. We have Kulu and Maddison that do what he does already and signing Eze would have meant no Solanke and probably no Gray either.

Ange wanted Grey. He's literally just said in an interview that he weighed up signing Gray against using the funds to buy someone ready made but wouldn't be able to live with passing up signing someone of his potential. So in one breath you're saying "back the manager" and in the other you're saying "not on that decision"

I have no problem buying the likes of Gray etc, but i have an issue if those are the payers targetted and more ready-made players are passed-up yet we complain that we are overtaken by rivals etc

 

[DeanoAustin]

Wages he said, wages. We don't pay top level wages for players. We might be willing to pay some decentish transfer fees but not the wages we aren't. Also that summer transfer figure is across many players, it's not quite the same as spending big money on fewer players of more quality.

I'm always surprised by how often this gets overlooked. Transfer fees are only one part of the equation and, with the Bosman ruling and length of contract heavily influencing the size of the fee, not the big part.

To sign quality players, you need to pay big wages. You have to incentivise a player to come to your club and the amount of money his former club gets isn't going to influence a player. How much money he gets in his back pocket will and we seem to be very rigid on what we pay.

Levy is famed for bonuses - if the club does well, the players do well. If we don't, the players don't. Do we pay anyone the type of wages that Liverpool pay VVD and Salah? Do we pay anyone the wages Man U pay Rashford and Casemiro? Do we pay anyone what Woolwich pay Rice?

Until we start paying big wages, we won't get big players. Levy knows the minute he pays a big salary, he'll have Son, Romero and so on at his door looking for more. He knows it throws out his wages to revenue ratio and he knows it is a big risk to our profitability if the team doesn't perform on the pitch.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Most managers that fail somewhere look to paint themselves as hard done by. Self preservation.

I get that. In our case, it's almost always true to a large extent though

 

[billyiddo]

I get that. In our case, it's almost always true to a large extent though

It's no more true than any other time a hapless manager trots it out - you just believe it here because it suits your position.

 

[glorygloryeze]

It's no more true than any other time a hapless manager trots it out - you just believe it here because it suits your position.

Nope. We can see with our own eyes in terms of players bought/not bought etc.

I think Ange is doing a poor job, but i'm not blind to see that if he goes we're not as attractive a proposition we were years ago because of how we operate (and that the veneer we had of being an ambitious football club has well and truly slipped)

 

[Gazza]

I'm always surprised by how often this gets overlooked. Transfer fees are only one part of the equation and, with the Bosman ruling and length of contract heavily influencing the size of the fee, not the big part.

To sign quality players, you need to pay big wages. You have to incentivise a player to come to your club and the amount of money his former club gets isn't going to influence a player. How much money he gets in his back pocket will and we seem to be very rigid on what we pay.

Levy is famed for bonuses - if the club does well, the players do well. If we don't, the players don't. Do we pay anyone the type of wages that Liverpool pay VVD and Salah? Do we pay anyone the wages Man U pay Rashford and Casemiro? Do we pay anyone what Woolwich pay Rice?

Until we start paying big wages, we won't get big players. Levy knows the minute he pays a big salary, he'll have Son, Romero and so on at his door looking for more. He knows it throws out his wages to revenue ratio and he knows it is a big risk to our profitability if the team doesn't perform on the pitch.

100%, the stadium was supposedly aimed to address the gap but in reality all we have done is keep up with the status quo.

A healthy profitable company is more likely to get an offer higher than its real value and I think that’s always been Levy’s plan.

The model in my opinion has always been don’t get relegated, try to get the most out of player sales and purchases, without eating into finances. Build the best infrastructure possible and attract a buyer who will pay over the odds for a turn key business.

Don’t blame him as you only live once but like I’ve said before he’s gone stale and can’t keep flogging a dead horse to the fans in terms of actually pushing the boat out and genuinely trying to win.

Shake my hand and all the best Danny you have done really well to get us this far but the next step is beyond your capabilities.

 

[billyiddo]

Nope. We can see with our own eyes in terms of players bought/not bought etc.

I think Ange is doing a poor job, but i'm not blind to see that if he goes we're not as attractive a proposition we were years ago because of how we operate (and that the veneer we had of being an ambitious football club has well and truly slipped)

True everywhere - manager fails and the players he does have/did sign weren't good enough and the couple he missed out on 'that definitely would have come if it wasn't for the evil club higher ups' would have made all the difference.

 

[Finney Is Back]

That's Munn and Lange's job and to be honest, they should have that "patsy" lined up already

Finding a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 manager who uses wingers isn't that fudging hard mate

'Should' and 'have' are two different things. History is what gives me so little faith in this club operating like a well run football club.

 

[glorygloryeze]

True everywhere - manager fails and the players he does have/did sign weren't good enough and the couple he missed out on 'that definitely would have come if it wasn't for the evil club higher ups' would have made all the difference.

I look at a long-term view of how we operate. If Ange is given the boot is is because he has underachieved with what he has.
It still doesn't (for me) distract from the fact that the business done last summer wasn't one for a club with lofty ambitions to push on from last season.
In fact, you could argue that actually the season is going as planned (i.e. not as good as last season) and as such should buy Ange time...