Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[Bedfordspurs]

He undoubtedly has Steff. The full backs are not as ridiculously high as often (albeit Porro does still wander into crazy positions) and we aren’t pressing as intensely as we otherwise would. The number of games has had an impact on how we play. And I can understand people using that as mitigation for results but there are two things for me.

All through his reign, our defence has been left exposed regardless of personnel and freshness. The way we defend as a team, primarily in midfield and the full back areas, is really poor. I honestly couldn’t believe what I was watching for the first goal yesterday and Im not talking about Kinsky’s howler. You could look at Leicester’s second goal as another example but there are loads.

At what point is Ange’s performance unacceptable? Does he get a free pass because of injuries because, frankly, it would be very difficult to have done any worse since middle of December in terms of results.

Ange’s deficiencies have been exposed even more harshly because of the injury crisis (which he may have a hand in tbf) but those deficiencies are there regardless of what eleven are on the pitch.

We’re not pressing at all
Having one player run at them is not a press for me

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It is a great question.

With regards to the second bit bolded above, I think it is now clear that in order for the style to work, we need elite players with elite rotational options. That being said, I do think that with even four other players available, we'd be in a much better place (Solanke, Romero, Udogie, Johnson being the four)...

We need rotational options over elite players imo
The system doesn’t need elite football, it needs players to do the most basic Things better
Passing is a huge huge issue
I had average view yesterday as we were upper tier and it was scary how many passes were poorly weighted and behind peoples running stride… players had to check their run to receive a weak pass
That’s a basic football skill big of course if may also be affected baby fatigue as Kulu was a major culprit

 

[DeanoAustin]

We’re not pressing at all
Having one player run at them is not a press for me

We tried a press on that first goal but Porro was way too late to the party and ended up neither pressing or defending properly and having to sprint back like a lunatic.

 

[DeanoAustin]

We need rotational options over elite players imo
The system doesn’t need elite football, it needs players to do the most basic Things better
Passing is a huge huge issue
I had average view yesterday as we were upper tier and it was scary how many passes were poorly weighted and behind peoples running stride… players had to check their run to receive a weak pass
That’s a basic football skill big of course if may also be affected baby fatigue as Kulu was a major culprit

That is actually a great point and something I’ve noticed regularly this season and won’t show up in passing stats because, technically, the pass is accurate. Bissouma’s pass to Sarr for The Dippers first was a huge example of it (albeit that was a misplaced pass).

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We tried a press on that first goal but Porro was way too late to the party and ended up neither pressing or defending properly and having to sprint back like a lunatic.

It’s why IMO it’s not a press
It’s just players running forward
Can see a massive solanke hole on that pitch
I thought sonny was so bad on that first goal but I’ve seen it again and his run was spot on
Everything after it was so so bad

 

[Bedfordspurs]

That is actually a great point and something I’ve noticed regularly this season and won’t show up in passing stats because, technically, the pass is accurate. Bissouma’s pass to Sarr for The Dippers first was a huge example of it (albeit that was a misplaced pass).

It’s really basic passing
We don’t know how much is affected by fatigue but it’s not slide rule passes through a tiny gap
And the weight of them … bad
It’s been an issue for a long long time including picks era
I think it will be something that becomes more notable as teams bring in more athletes and less technicians
Bournemouth pass badly but run well for example

 

[Mr Gogolak]

Passing is a huge huge issue

Passing or off the ball movement? This system is very demanding physically and when used in one of the most physcal demanding leagues in the world, it just doesn't work. There's a limit to what you can expect from your players, particularly when you don't have the luxury of having a backroom staff who knows your methods inside out.

Anyway, this is irrelevant now and that may be the worst thing about this season. He's not going to reinvent himself and even if he is given more/better players, the end result will be the same, in my opinion: injuries, defeats, excuses, more injuries, rinse, repeat.

 

[Robspur12]

Absolutely fair, as someone who has said for months I would want to see how we fare once our squad resembles something normal again I still completely respect and can't really argue with anyone who wants him gone. But what I will say is those who have highlighted the fact we lost to Ipswich and one or two other teams when having a less injury hit side - well yeah, this is the PL, these results still happen regardless.

But at the end of the day, any mitigating circumstances I or anyone else are happy to take into account are almost over as our playing every 3 days nightmare is pretty much over now, in the next week or two we will have a lot of players returning and of course you can't expect all these long term absentees to just come in straight away and hit the ground running - but it is very much EL or bust for Ange now, he has to get us performing in that or there is next to no chance he survives....

As ever mate, you position is very reasonable.

From my point of view, the number of games played is not a good argument for Ange. When a team is successful you have to play a lot of games. He would have known that when he got here. If you are not playing a lot of games it means you're not successful.

He has managed fatigue, imho really badly. Injuries are a mitigation, though how much he's contributed to them perhaps we will never know. But fatigue has to be managed. Someone pointed out how few draws or ground out wins like Brentford last week we have managed. Yesterday's defensive sh*t show shows that he hasn't set us up to play in a way to conserve energy. We are still too open and having to sprint and engage in last ditch defensive moves far too often.

Compounding it for me is that awful presser yesterday where he starts listing the number of times we are playing twice a week! That's life mate.

So for me, he already has no where to go and should be removed as soon as possible.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Passing or off the ball movement? This system is very demanding physically and when used in one of the most physcal demanding leagues in the world, it just doesn't work. There's a limit to what you can expect from your players, particularly when you don't have the luxury of having a backroom staff who knows your methods inside out.

Anyway, this is irrelevant now and that may be the worst thing about this season. He's not going to reinvent himself and even if he is given more/better players, the end result will be the same, in my opinion: injuries, defeats, excuses, more injuries, rinse, repeat.

Passing
The quality of pass is bad
The two are very distinctly different imo
In fact I’d argue the inability to weight a pass even causes injuries because players are running and checking

 

[glorygloryeze]

They are not 'excuses' they are facts. The facts are that we have been without Vicario, Van de Ven, Romero, Udogie, Johnson, Solanke, Maddison, Richarlison, Odobert for most of the last two and half months. Of that list, the first four have been consistently non-available since then, the others have between them been unavailable for half.

Those facts don't excuse being as low in the table as we are though, it's a bad injury crisis but it should not mean we are lower than our expected range as we saw last year (i.e.in or around the top 4 or top 6 rather than closer to the relegation places than the top 6)

That poor position in the table is down to the fact that Ange has been coaching this team poorly for a long time now and we are seeing the results to reflect this week in, week out now with the poor way we set-up defensively and (now more recently) the poor way we are set offensively as well.

We've sacked managers who have long runs of poor results for much less than what Ange is dishing up (and the football ineptitude in our club hierarchy is a separate topic that can be covered well elsewhere) and any of us who yearn for a 'long-term' manager usually want that to be one who is reasonably competent in the PL at the least to show they warrant such faith. Ange hasn't shown in this competitive PL environment that he has such competency..

 

[Mr Gogolak]

Passing
The quality of pass is bad
The two are very distinctly different imo
In fact I’d argue the inability to weight a pass even causes injuries because players are running and checking

I tend to think it's an egg and chicken problem. I have a tough time believing you can make it to the highest level in 2026 without being able to hit a 5-yard pass. The tempo of the game and the quality of the opposition's pressing may have an impact but only to an extent.

On the other hand, making yourself available and running into space requires some willpower as, nine times out of ten, the effort will go unrewarded. If you let your head drop and you don't do that properly, then even the best passer in the world will look like a donkey.

30 or 40 years ago, fitness was a huge part of training: it was designed to allow the players to hit peak form in december. Obviously, things have changed but I'm not sure what we've been doing for the past couple of years is a very successful approach.

 

[harr1984]

As ever mate, you position is very reasonable.

From my point of view, the number of games played is not a good argument for Ange. When a team is successful you have to play a lot of games. He would have known that when he got here. If you are not playing a lot of games it means you're not successful.

He has managed fatigue, imho really badly. Injuries are a mitigation, though how much he's contributed to them perhaps we will never know. But fatigue has to be managed. Someone pointed out how few draws or ground out wins like Brentford last week we have managed. Yesterday's defensive sh*t show shows that he hasn't set us up to play in a way to conserve energy. We are still too open and having to sprint and engage in last ditch defensive moves far too often.

Compounding it for me is that awful presser yesterday where he starts listing the number of times we are playing twice a week! That's life mate.

So for me, he already has no where to go and should be removed as soon as possible.

Yeah absolultely, I think when any manager envisions playing twice a week they don't imagine having the number of significant injuries we have had though. But regardless, I don't doubt things could have been managed better on the injury side, the problem is he has not managed in such an intense league before ( and to be fair, even coming from the Spanish/Italian league you could argue the same - the PL is different level in terms of intensity). He has had to learn on the job in this area, and have been encouraged about how he is dealing with it more recently - and there is still only so much he can do when we have so many out.

I am probably a more empathetic character by nature than many, hence being more open to seeing how we fare under him for at least the remainder of the season - but I am certainly not going to argue with the reasons you and others have for wanting him gone, it's all understandable and fair and I doubt Ange himself deep down would have any real complaints were he shown the door....

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I tend to think it's an egg and chicken problem. I have a tough time believing you can make it to the highest level in 2026 without being able to hit a 5-yard pass. The tempo of the game and the quality of the opposition's pressing may have an impact but only to an extent.

On the other hand, making yourself available and running into space requires some willpower as, nine times out of ten, the effort will go unrewarded. If you let your head drop and you don't do that properly, then even the best passer in the world will look like a donkey.

30 or 40 years ago, fitness was a huge part of training: it was designed to allow the players to hit peak form in december. Obviously, things have changed but I'm not sure what we've been doing for the past couple of years is a very successful approach.

I had an amazing view yesterday and I saw constantly weak passes
Short ones or ones behind the player
I agree with your logic but it’s one thing I’ve seen for an age now
I saw players run, and run and the pass be bad… like really bad
The only reason it’s not obvious is e cause the receiving player adjusts. But it’s there

 

[Muttley]

I had an amazing view yesterday and I saw constantly weak passes
Short ones or ones behind the player
I agree with your logic but it’s one thing I’ve seen for an age now
I saw players run, and run and the pass be bad… like really bad
The only reason it’s not obvious is e cause the receiving player adjusts. But it’s there

And we know these players are more than capable of playing these passes and then moving.

My question would be how does the analyst feedback (both data and passing the eyes test) equate back to what is worked on in training. What you're talking about is quite fundamental to how we want to play. So how are we honing these techniques day in, day out so the passing and moving gets slicker and slicker? Are we creating real scenarios for the guys to feel the right pressure to pass and move.

We can't obviously prove anything about what is happening on the training ground, but it feels like there is a disconnect.

 

[Bishop]

It is a great question.

With regards to the second bit bolded above, I think it is now clear that in order for the style to work, we need elite players with elite rotational options. That being said, I do think that with even four other players available, we'd be in a much better place (Solanke, Romero, Udogie, Johnson being the four)...

Not to be rude but why is it only now clear to you that we need elite players to play this way? It was clear last season, it's always been clear and that's always been the concern we do not have the players to fulfil his demands but he's seems unconcerned with that and Johnson isn't one of those players, he's as much a problem as everybody else.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

And we know these players are more than capable of playing these passes and then moving.

My question would be how does the analyst feedback (both data and passing the eyes test) equate back to what is worked on in training. What you're talking about is quite fundamental to how we want to play. So how are we honing these techniques day in, day out so the passing and moving gets slicker and slicker? Are we creating real scenarios for the guys to feel the right pressure to pass and move.

We can't obviously prove anything about what is happening on the training ground, but it feels like there is a disconnect.

This is not an observation that’s new
These players passed poorly too under previous managers

 

[Bishop]

This is not an observation that’s new
These players passed poorly too under previous managers

If you buy average passers then that's what you're gonna have, a bunch of average passers. It's quite obvious we have no technical specialist in the team, you know I've asking for years for a player who can switch the play but we can't do it because we lack a player with that ability. All the short passing is nice but it seems that many forget that zenith if that style had Xavi, Iniesta and Messi playing those passes all 3 capable of playing an absolute killer ball when necessary. We don't have that, we just have the 5 yard pass to feet.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

I had an amazing view yesterday and I saw constantly weak passes
Short ones or ones behind the player
I agree with your logic but it’s one thing I’ve seen for an age now
I saw players run, and run and the pass be bad… like really bad
The only reason it’s not obvious is e cause the receiving player adjusts. But it’s there

In case it wasn't clear, I respect your knowledge and first-hand experience. Football was always meant to be enjoyed from the stands and while television is a good substitute for those, like me, who can't go to every game, I'll always pay attention to what someone who was actually there has to say.

I'll be looking at it more closely next time. To be honest, I had the feeling it was more of a physical issue than a technical one, but I'll freely admit that I was biased for the reasons explained earlier. Thanks for the different perspective anyway - it'll give me something different to consider!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

If you buy average passers then that's what you're gonna have, a bunch of average passers. It's quite obvious we have no technical specialist in the team, you know I've asking for years for a player who can switch the play but we can't do it because we lack a player with that ability. All the short passing is nice but it seems that many forget that zenith if that style had Xavi, Iniesta and Messi playing those passes all 3 capable of playing an absolute killer ball when necessary. We don't have that, we just have the 5 yard pass to feet.

Even those short passes are poorly done though

 

[Bedfordspurs]

In case it wasn't clear, I respect your knowledge and first-hand experience. Football was always meant to be enjoyed from the stands and while television is a good substitute for those, like me, who can't go to every game, I'll always pay attention to what someone who was actually there has to say.

I'll be looking at it more closely next time. To be honest, I had the feeling it was more of a physical issue than a technical one, but I'll freely admit that I was biased for the reasons explained earlier. Thanks for the different perspective anyway - it'll give me something different to consider!

My normal seat is south lower
Yesterday at villa it was upper tier and a different view (literally)
When I said about it to my mate the guy behind me turned around and said the same thing
I don’t know if you get that view as well side in like you do with TV
Against united watch how many times Kulu gets the ball behind his left foot so he is kind of stretching and has to drag it forward. It means his stance is physically weaker than it should be. Was massively apparently against Liverpool