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American politics

Muttley said:
Do you not think that the Dems are doing exactly the same as Starmer and Labour did? He gave our Tory party and their various leaders enough rope to hang themselves. No doubt the Dems know they can't win by saying too much at this stage. They will do their talking in the mid-terms when things will invariably shift back their direction. Even then their comms will be minimal this far out from the next election. We know the pattern.
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The only issue with that is standing back and letting the Conservatives sink their own ship was still within the realms of political normalcy with regards to what they might get up to.....Trump on the other hand ?
 
monkeybarry said:
This is a fascinating and understandable sentiment.
But what does that look like?

Fascism being what it is, they already have those counter avenues sewn up.
What are people going to do? Protest? They'll be labelled lefty wokey and anti democracy, irrespective of how they voted. And they'll be met with a group of, well....we saw what they look like on 6 Jan.
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What I mean is...if Trump and Musk went softly softly then some of the more idiotic Americans might think it is all fine and justifiable, sat there like slowly cooking frogs.
But if Trump and Musk go 100mph and sack everyone and smash up democracy and ruin everyone's life super fast, then 99% of Americans should realise that they need replacing, either via protests or elimination.

It's like if Spurs sack Ange now, half the fans will say great, half will say "but it would have got much better if he had more time".
If Trump and Musk go tomorrow, half the US will say "but it would have got much better if he had more time"
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
The only issue with that is standing back and letting the Conservatives sink their own ship was still within the realms of political normalcy with regards to what they might get up to.....Trump on the other hand ?
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I don't live in the US but used to spend a lot of time there. My guess is that the Dems are feeling that if the media are saying and doing the right things then they probably don't need to. That same media have never forgiven Trump for removing them as the filter between the White House and the general public. As we all know, in 2017 Trump just went direct to the nation through Twitter and the press found out the same time as the nation. There was a lot of respect for Trump removing the manipulation and talking direct to his public. That was after years of the media acting as a the filter and manipulating the message, no different from how Kuensberg and her BBC political team do in the UK. I guess the Dems know that whatever they say will be filtered and manipulated anyway.

The other thing is that the greater US nation don't always see the big bad world like we do. Some would argue that the world runs from the Pacific to the Atlantic one way, and from Canada to Mexico the other. Ukraine is a massive deal for us. Does it have as much meaning in the US? Musk sacking federal employees is invariably a much bigger topic than sending a million Ukranian aliens to their graves. At least they're not illegal aliens like the Mexicans.

I still think the Dems will under-communicate for a while yet. Instead, they are hoping some world leaders get stuck into Trump.
 
Muttley said:
Do you not think that the Dems are doing exactly the same as Starmer and Labour did? He gave our Tory party and their various leaders enough rope to hang themselves. No doubt the Dems know they can't win by saying too much at this stage. They will do their talking in the mid-terms when things will invariably shift back their direction. Even then their comms will be minimal this far out from the next election. We know the pattern.
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No, I don't.
Mainly because what I don't believe any of the major parties anywhere realise, or want to realise, is that the steady flow of voters to fringe parties is not necessarily a vote FOR the Fringe party, it's a vote AGAINST them.
The more they try to ignore the Trumps, the reforms, afd and le Penns of the world the more voters will drift away.
Take the German elections as the most recent, 20% of the population voted for a party, the second highest vote on the election, and yet they are getting excluded from having a say in the running of the country. Their could be taken by a party with a fraction of the vote.
Is that democracy?
But more importantly, I would say that the vast majority of those voters are voting that way because of the message from the political parties.
Everything is fine, well no it's not.
Trust us, we can fix this, no you can't, you got us here.

Ignore this at their peril.
 
glasgowspur said:
Take the German elections as the most recent, 20% of the population voted for a party, the second highest vote on the election, and yet they are getting excluded from having a say in the running of the country. Their could be taken by a party with a fraction of the vote.
Is that democracy?
But more importantly, I would say that the vast majority of those voters are voting that way because of the message from the political parties.
Everything is fine, well no it's not.
Trust us, we can fix this, no you can't, you got us here.
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Of course it's democracy. They came second ....so the party that came first decides how it forms it's government.
It's like saying the conservatives gained 24% of the vote why are they excluded from having a say in running the UK.

And NO party is saying 'Everything is fine'
 
Bullet said:
What I mean is...if Trump and Musk went softly softly then some of the more idiotic Americans might think it is all fine and justifiable, sat there like slowly cooking frogs.
But if Trump and Musk go 100mph and sack everyone and smash up democracy and ruin everyone's life super fast, then 99% of Americans should realise that they need replacing, either via protests or elimination.

It's like if Spurs sack Ange now, half the fans will say great, half will say "but it would have got much better if he had more time".
If Trump and Musk go tomorrow, half the US will say "but it would have got much better if he had more time"
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When it comes down to it, eating and a roof over your head will always take precident over democracy. Sad, but true. You can't eat morality.
Some (I'd say lots) simply don't care about the details. Some support the "power man", some support the "winner" etc etc.
Business is more important than democracy to many Americans.
"Freedom" is more important than democracy to many Americans. Democracy isn't freedom when compared to Liberalism. And this guy is letting people be "free" to do what they want.

At the minute they are going hard, but against easy targets - migrants, far away places, civil servants and wokies. All of those are highly demonized in the US.
Protests need common cause and organisation - where does that come from? There is no avenue at present that would be sizeable enough. Small protests will be dismissed or turned into combat.
Whether that leads to escalation or quashing, I think that's a big unknown.
Eradication - that (or a future coup) seem like the only brake that can be applied. And that in and of itself very well might create martyrdom (of the ideology, if not the person)
 
Who’s seen the Trump Gaza video 😂 put aside the stupidity and he is never dull. When something is so wrong it’s almost funny. Like offensive stand up. As long as you don’t take it seriously.
 
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Diamond Lights said:
He's the President of the United States though. Not a stand up comedian. so you kind of have to take it seriously.
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Can you take anything he says seriously? His impact is more post-truth, an image, an impression.

And when politics has been in a state of stasis for near on a century, is it any wonder that someone who re-writes the rules, and uses soundbites (albeit of nonsense) captivates audiences? The amount of words written about Trump must be multiples more than any other president you'd think. There is a logic to the gonads. It is scattergun, fascinating, dangerous, tantalising, entertaining, upsettting... What it isn't is the same old dull political speak.
 
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SpurMeUp said:
Can you take anything he says seriously? His impact is more post-truth, an image, an impression.

And when politics had be in a state of stasis for near on a century, is it any wonder that someone who re-writes the rules, and uses soundbites (albeit of nonsense) captivates audiences? The amount of words written about Trump must be multiples more than any other president you'd think. There is a logic to the gonads. It is scattergun, fascinating, dangerous, tantalising, entertaining, upsettting... What it isn't is the same old dull political speak.
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Sounds like fun and games. I'm sure people said the same back in Germany in the 1930s. what could go wrong eh?
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
Of course it's democracy. They came second ....so the party that came first decides how it forms it's government.
It's like saying the conservatives gained 24% of the vote why are they excluded from having a say in running the UK.

And NO party is saying 'Everything is fine'
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It's a different system in the UK so not really comparable.
To downright say that we will under no circumstances enter into negotiations with the other side is not IMHO democratic.
Say that they will be a last resort, at the end of the queue or something along those lines is pushing it, but to flat out refuse is not correct, again IMHO.
And this is one of the reasons voters are moving to the smaller fringe parties.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
I would like to see Starmer do a Hugh grant from love actually and properly call him out.

Those remarks last week about Ukraine were absolutely disgusting. Never liked Trump but sound of found it funny when he was telling people to drink bleach. But a country gets invaded their citizens raped and killed and to say they started it, it's disgusting.

If Starmer could get France and Germany to support him I would back him to declare war on Russia. Really it's what Johnson should have done when it all started.

I voted leave because I hate the EU. But we are all still Europeans. We might have our differences in Europe but our continent and way of life needs protecting.
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I'm sorry but you're fxxking mad
 
K.D.D.D.D.Soc said:
I'm sorry but you're fxxking mad
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Because I want to see a tyrant like Putin stopped and the is only one thing a bully understands.

If we don't stand up to him now I believe we are just pushing the problem down the road.

Never apologise for your view, it is a genuine one and I can understand it. Your not trying to be provocative and your opinion is valid.

So are my reasons for thinking we should go to war with Russia. I enjoy you as a poster and we have different views on this topic. But I'm not going to do what younger people seem to do. I have different views on a topic to someone so I try and turn them into a monster. I value your opinion.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Can you take anything he says seriously? His impact is more post-truth, an image, an impression.

And when politics has been in a state of stasis for near on a century, is it any wonder that someone who re-writes the rules, and uses soundbites (albeit of nonsense) captivates audiences? The amount of words written about Trump must be multiples more than any other president you'd think. There is a logic to the gonads. It is scattergun, fascinating, dangerous, tantalising, entertaining, upsettting... What it isn't is the same old dull political speak.
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Any other adjectives you want to throw in?...It's not meant to be a Hollywood film ffs.

I just watched the Gaza video btw....it's off the chain.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
Any other adjectives you want to throw in?...It's not meant to be a Hollywood film ffs.
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Is politics a form of entertainment for middle-aged and older people? A kind of soap for those pretending to be influential in current affairs. Truth is apart from a vote ever 5 years, we have little to no input, but we consume it all to pass the time. A form of entertainment. If you subscribe to this viewpoint, then Trump is just putting on a show. Which is what he did for two decades on TV?
ricky2tricky4city said:
I just watched the Gaza video btw....it's off the chain.
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Yes! Its hard to process its so off the chain!
 
SpurMeUp said:
Is politics a form of entertainment for middle-aged and older people? A kind of soap for those pretending to be influential in current affairs. Truth is apart from a vote ever 5 years, we have little to no input, but we consume it all to pass the time. A form of entertainment. If you subscribe to this viewpoint, then Trump is just putting on a show. Which is what he did for two decades on TV?

Yes! Its hard to process its so off the chain!
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it's a brave new world.
 
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