Ange in or out?

[SpurMeUp]

Ok, I am not really sure what you are getting at with regards to Tonga.

I have now gone back to the article and picked one paragraph: "The real question is: why do they think these things? How have Tottenham been so unlucky as to end up with so many international footballers who seem to make terrible decisions at key moments?

The inference is we have great players who Ange has "stewed" in a culture [I didn't know you could stew people in a culture its zhit journalism] which has resulted in these fine players become worse.

It is the kind of narrative that will have been inspired by reading twitter or a forum. It limited and stupid. It negates reality: we are not blessed with so many ready made top notch players at all (I am shocked this is not obvious!). Especially at the moment. Only Kulu and Son are full blooded internationals. Two. The rest are developing or fringe international players. And our back line is obviously a patched up group of in-experience.

The negative inference that Ange has turned them into worse players is horse zhit. You lap it up clearly.

Are they just bad players, incapable of reading a situation? Or have they been slowly stewed in a culture where total commitment is an acceptable substitute for judgment? Where the acid test of your quality is not what you did, or what actually happened, but how loyally you stuck to the ideology?"

I didn't read it that way. You did. You don't like the article or the journalist which is fair enough. I honestly don't find what he said so terrible.....so maybe we can agree to disagree. I actually agreed with your original point, only pointing out we have internationals

Any Spurs fan should not like the article. It insults Dragusin calls him a boy band git who can't defend. He's 22! Didn't you read it!? I am shocked you side with such abysmal hate of our team.

 

[DTA]

Ange has to stay at least to the end of the season

And I don’t mind us taking chances to score more even if it means us conceding more chance and even being inconsistent (in the short term)

But…

It is obvious that teams are keying in on the spaces vacated by our full backs this a vulnerability that we don’t seem to fix. AND on top of this the FBs coming in as false 10s or whatever seems to be a tactic that although worked successfully at the start of Ange’s Reign now seems to be largely negated by other teams adjusting. In fact the Full backs now seem to be there to make decoy runs that are almost always ignored by the wide forwards - this of course opens space BUT a bit of variation here would surely work better.

On top of this, so much of our play goes down the left… but Son is not the guy to take advantage of that… either because it’s not his natural position or because he has no longer got the legs for it.

One thing is for certain he looses the ball too much and doesn’t do enough damage for the amount of time we spend attacking from the left.

and on top of that (as someone already has mentioned a while back - I forget who so apologies) but why do we insist on playing about from the back to draw people out if we don’t then transition quickly to attack? Liverpool also play it out but within a couple of passes they are baring down on the oppositions goal…

 

[Diamond Lights]

Look, i dont want Ange bombed out, clearly the fans are getting divided. what i need to understand, and what i struggle to understand, are the Ange supports who are so blindly supportive of the methods and tactics. Can someone explain to me why he's not at fault for things? Or the guarentee that eventually "it will come good". based on what?

new signings? we dont make them, certainly not at the level needed to put this team into a position of superiority. How will a 19 year old CHILD suddenly transform this team?

speaking of which, a lot of "we eventually will work when the players get the system". But as we have seen, some players are average and wont be here in 3 years in this superior system under this superior manager. Bissouma? gone. Johnson? if we want to win the league he wont be a starter. Madders? Same.

How can it suddenly work with new players if we need massive upgrades of quality in those players but we never sign such players?

right now, it's a bit of a house of cards and i'm sure there's a great team in there, but the manager at the moment is costing us games. you cannot continually just say "this is how we play regardless". Heaven forbid, what if Ange is wrong? has that ever been considered as an option?

 

[afsoc4life]

As usual the media pick the ones which make him look bad, stats are stats. Lets see all the stats not a few cherry picked ones to enhance their story.

 

[metalgear]

There you have it. Slot outsmarted Ange,

 

[Mrs Vert]

The inference is we have great players who Ange has "stewed" in a culture [I didn't know you could stew people in a culture its zhit journalism] which has resulted in these fine players become worse.

It is the kind of narrative that will have been inspired by reading twitter or a forum. It limited and stupid. It negates reality: we are not blessed with so many ready made top notch players at all (I am shocked this is not obvious!). Especially at the moment. Only Kulu and Son are full blooded internationals. Two. The rest are developing or fringe international players. And our back line is obviously a patched up group of in-experience.

The negative inference that Ange has turned them into worse players is horse zhit. You lap it up clearly.



Any Spurs fan should not like the article. It insults Dragusin calls him a boy band git who can't defend. He's 22! Didn't you read it!? I am shocked you side with such abysmal hate of our team.

I am not in love with the article. I simply stated we had internationals. I am not going on a mass hate campaign on every word he said, nor am I letting it effect me as much as it has you . Thank you for explaining your point.

 

[Baleforce]

There you have it. Slot outsmarted Ange,
View attachment 18285

Nah, managers don’t change the way they play based on the opposition.

That’s not cricket mate.

 

[thfcsteff]

Yes it’s a fact that Liverpool rotated in midweek but why does that stop Ange being more cautious and pragmatic? Especially when we have injuries in key defensive positions, he doesn’t alter the tactics at all. Complaining about injuries but defending him for sticking to his principles is really making my case for me that he’s mad for not changing how we play

But again -and when I asked Skiprat this question they just threw out two line-ups which frankly comprised selections which would be soundly beaten - how do you suggest he changes? I am genuinely interested to learn if there is something you think he could do. Again if we even consider he would change. What system -and with which players- could he deploy?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

But again -and when I asked Skiprat this question they just threw out two line-ups which frankly comprised selections which would be soundly beaten - how do you suggest he changes? I am genuinely interested to learn if there is something you think he could do. Again if we even consider he would change. What system -and with which players- could he deploy?

All I’ve wharf is he could play sarr deeper an ask the full back not to attack as much
Which is exactly what we did until they got their 2nd and we were really chasing
The press and the way we play is what we got the 3 goals we did
But I’d guess if we didn’t play that way it could have been anything as a result but we wouldn’t win… that’s for sure

 

[Bedfordspurs]

There you have it. Slot outsmarted Ange,
View attachment 18285

By targeting the guy who plays the ball out the least effective way
It’s not new
But it’s gonna happen when you have your reserves play
I do think we targetged their right side but Sonny didn’t do anything right

 

[Lilbaz]

But we have not enough players as is
That the issue
Hence why we have flooded pakyers who are broken

In his position we have maddison, kulu and bergvall. Where do you want to play him, in goal?

 

[Junior19]

Since when did it have to be such a binary comparison between losing 3-6 and losing 0-3?
How many times in the PL era have we lost by 3 goals at home vs Liverpool FFS??

How about comparing a tight 1-2 loss or even a 1-1 draw to a 3-6 loss???
The lengths people seem to go to deflect, goodness me...

We've done the tight losses, we've done the draws. I think I would still prefer us to score 3 goals, while living up to our heritage to another tight "Mourinho masterclass".

 

[Bedfordspurs]

In his position we have maddison, kulu and bergvall. Where do you want to play him, in goal?

Bergvall isn’t ready so ahead of him
Maybe instead of Maddison who has been a real mix bag

 

[Gazza]

We've done the tight losses, we've done the draws. I think I would still prefer us to score 3 goals, while living up to our heritage to another tight "Mourinho masterclass".

That heritage stuff is absolute guff… we hide behind it, West Ham hide behind it … it doesn’t exist … perhaps in a patch in history but for the majority of the time we have had a a few players who could turn up on their day… those days are gone. All the teams are building for points and wins consistently not just a really here and there.

And it doesn’t have to be so extreme to support your narrative of mourinho … he was coming to the end of his cycle as an elite manager but certainly was not the right choice for financial reasons and how the club chose to operate.

 

[Junior19]

I didn’t think it would need explaining, but here goes…it doesn’t have to be Ange’s approach or Conte/Mourinho’s. Most teams get by playing somewhere inbetween, and varying their game plan dependent on the opposition.

No, it doesn't have to be, but equally to us being married to a certain way of playing under Ange, we were married to a certain system and way of playing under the mentioned gentlemen. And while Mourinho to a certain extent are known to tailor his approach to the opposition, the base foundation is the very same from game 1 to game 38. Thus the comparison.

The main point about the tactical "inflexibility" of Ange is that it would not have changed the personell he had at his disposal yesterday, no matter how much flexibility he had shown.

Ok, so let's do the experiment then. Let's drop down 40 yards, stop playing out from the back. We've got Solanke on top, against Van Dijk and Gomez, and we're pelting long balls up towards him. Son, Kulu and Maddison are pressing low block in front of Sarr and Bissouma, who covers the back four from yesterday. Against Diaz, Gakpo, Szobozlai and Salah. And the rest of them.
Sarr and Bissouma, hardly touching the ball, just covering the areas between defenders, staying in position at all times, while the ball flies over their head.

And people seriously expect that to end well? I stand by my previous statement, we would have lost 99 of 100 games played that way. It may not have been by shipping 6 goals, but we would most certainly NEVER have scored 3 that way.

We were odds-on to lose that game no matter what, as soon as we lost both Cuti and VdV, and Davies as well. It was an uphill battle from the very beginning, and bar a moment of magic (which we know can happen, but rarely do) it was always going to be a rough afternoon at the Lane.
If we hadn't lost midfielders as well, we might have cobbled together a different solution, but I don't think that would have made a horsebrick of difference regardless.

It seems to me that some are dreaming of using racecars as plowing tractors, and expect a good harvest.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

No, it doesn't have to be, but equally to us being married to a certain way of playing under Ange, we were married to a certain system and way of playing under the mentioned gentlemen. And while Mourinho to a certain extent are known to tailor his approach to the opposition, the base foundation is the very same from game 1 to game 38. Thus the comparison.

The main point about the tactical "inflexibility" of Ange is that it would not have changed the personell he had at his disposal yesterday, no matter how much flexibility he had shown.

Ok, so let's do the experiment then. Let's drop down 40 yards, stop playing out from the back. We've got Solanke on top, against Van Dijk and Gomez, and we're pelting long balls up towards him. Son, Kulu and Maddison are pressing low block in front of Sarr and Bissouma, who covers the back four from yesterday. Against Diaz, Gakpo, Szobozlai and Salah. And the rest of them.
Sarr and Bissouma, hardly touching the ball, just covering the areas between defenders, staying in position at all times, while the ball flies over their head.

And people seriously expect that to end well? I stand by my previous statement, we would have lost 99 of 100 games played that way. It may not have been by shipping 6 goals, but we would most certainly NEVER have scored 3 that way.

We were odds-on to lose that game no matter what, as soon as we lost both Cuti and VdV, and Davies as well. It was an uphill battle from the very beginning, and bar a moment of magic (which we know can happen, but rarely do) it was always going to be a rough afternoon at the Lane.
If we hadn't lost midfielders as well, we might have cobbled together a different solution, but I don't think that would have made a horsebrick of difference regardless.

It seems to me that some are dreaming of using racecars as plowing tractors, and expect a good harvest.

They talked about it on the VFTL pod today and did decline Liverpool as a plough IIRC
Whereas city would grind you down, pool just go at you and are the team with the least missing players of any currently
I fully expected that result as it was (I said 5-2) because I couldn’t see any way the team, in its current state could do much more
When we have tactical genius’s like carragher and Redknapp telling me I’m wrong, I know I’m right.
Now if a decent coach came out and talked about how we’re playing I would happily listen

 

[Baleforce]

No, it doesn't have to be, but equally to us being married to a certain way of playing under Ange, we were married to a certain system and way of playing under the mentioned gentlemen. And while Mourinho to a certain extent are known to tailor his approach to the opposition, the base foundation is the very same from game 1 to game 38. Thus the comparison.

The main point about the tactical "inflexibility" of Ange is that it would not have changed the personell he had at his disposal yesterday, no matter how much flexibility he had shown.

Ok, so let's do the experiment then. Let's drop down 40 yards, stop playing out from the back. We've got Solanke on top, against Van Dijk and Gomez, and we're pelting long balls up towards him. Son, Kulu and Maddison are pressing low block in front of Sarr and Bissouma, who covers the back four from yesterday. Against Diaz, Gakpo, Szobozlai and Salah. And the rest of them.
Sarr and Bissouma, hardly touching the ball, just covering the areas between defenders, staying in position at all times, while the ball flies over their head.

And people seriously expect that to end well? I stand by my previous statement, we would have lost 99 of 100 games played that way. It may not have been by shipping 6 goals, but we would most certainly NEVER have scored 3 that way.

We were odds-on to lose that game no matter what, as soon as we lost both Cuti and VdV, and Davies as well. It was an uphill battle from the very beginning, and bar a moment of magic (which we know can happen, but rarely do) it was always going to be a rough afternoon at the Lane.
If we hadn't lost midfielders as well, we might have cobbled together a different solution, but I don't think that would have made a horsebrick of difference regardless.

It seems to me that some are dreaming of using racecars as plowing tractors, and expect a good harvest.

Yeah, Solanke should be beasting two dogbrick cb’s like that.

 

[DubSpur]

Bergvall isn’t ready so ahead of him
Maybe instead of Maddison who has been a real mix bag

What evidence is there that Devine is more ready than Bergval? Bergval had a shaky start but he's been fine the last few games he's come on..

 

[Bedfordspurs]

What evidence is there that Devine is more ready than Bergval? Bergval had a shaky start but he's been fine the last few games he's come on..

IMO because he and played here already in this country and ha sheen playing men’s football for longer and has played more games
Bergvall isn’t an issue but loaning out Devine has left us short of him when he could have been a good option IMO

 

[Raziel]

Ultimately the questions everyone in this thread need to ask themselves is:

1) Do you have ambitions to see THFC compete in the top 4 and for silverware?
2) Do you think Emirates Marketing Project, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Man United, Bayern Munich, Borussia Dortmund, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Athletico Madrid, Valencia, Juventus, AC Milan, Inter or Napoli would have hired Ange Postecoglu and all of these coaches?
3) Even if they had (Valencia hired Gary Neville FFS) do you think 18 months in, in our current situation, they'd tolerate this and trust the process?

I can tell you that the answer to 2) and 3) is "no the f*** they wouldn't"

Statement doesn't stand up to scrutiny in the slightest

2. United hired OGS and ETH and stuck with them for way too long (despite club record brick results). Chelsea just fudging hired Enzo Maresca, the guy has 3 fudging years, total, of management experience. Pep & Zidane were hired to Barca and Madrid with zero senior level management experience. Ange has managed for 26 years at club and international level.
3. You are confusing emotion with decision, do I feel extremely frustrated with Ange's results? yes, is he in a firing position yet? no. Facts, we are two wins off 5th place and in all cup competitions with some compelling caveats (injuries)

Now, do we believe even with a fit squad it's going to change, separate conversation, club has made an investment, it's smart to at least let it play out, if we are out of the cups by end of Jan and still in bottom half, do I think he will still be here?