• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Ange’s system / formation

I think it’s fine to criticise Ange but, for the arguments to hold up, they have to be consistent whether we win or lose IMO.

I don’t track poster’s history so this might be unfair but the overall tone of the message board seems to swing hard depending on the result. I don’t know if that’s because individuals are reacting differently based on results or whether people only come on to post to suit an agenda.

Naturally it’ll be a bit more negative when we lose and positive when we win but it does feel over reactionary at times.

And this place is the most sensible and balanced place to discuss Spurs on the internet IMO.

Great post.

There has actually been little difference in the tone and tempo of performances during the last month. Details are what has made one'great' and another 'brick'...I think the overreaction to yesterday is a key example. We actually played OK all told, especially given the tactics we faced (again!). Our weaknesses were all mistake-based. The concessions, whilst looking like on VdV in two instances, are mistakes system-execution wise further up the pitch. Before that, we created several very good chances and did not take them. We have a couple of players who are very tired and off-form. I think this system is largely really, really good. It was always going to require a season to get to grips with it, and we also need a few key upgrades/squad rotation options of quality. I personally did not think it was a 4-0 game yesterday. Did we play well? Not really, but I think we've lacked a consistent verve and braveness on the ball for some weeks now...it was exciting the way we beat Luton, but that performance was no betteror worse than yesterday save individual errors in attack and defence. Imagine if Luton had taken their free-header in the first half...fine margins...
 
I keep seeing referenced some sort of over reaction, can someone point me to such posts? I've only seen people really criticise the defensive displays which have been shocking for some time and people say Ange will have to figure out a way to solve this. Has anyone suggested we get rid of Ange or something similar?Not at all.

For as long as we continue to be so ridiculously vulnerable at the back whilst not scoring a bucket load of goals at the other end it is open to both discussion and criticism. As a whole Ange has done great, but he is not a genius and is not beyond criticism and being questioned. This very much has the feel of Poch all over again, where the mention of anything negative would be shouted down by many as if the guy walked on water and you wasn't allowed to critique in any way unless it was positive. Questioning a certain aspect of a managers tactics or managerial performance does not mean you don't rate the guy.

The only real over reaction I've seen in regards to Ange was those talking about us challenging for the title based on a good start to the season. That really was something....
If I get time to go through posts tomorrow I might do it and I wasn’t online much yesterday as I didn’t see much of the game but I saw posts having a serious pop at Udogie, I saw someone say Ange is just like Ossie and a couple of posters say his system has been figured out.
 
If I get time to go through posts tomorrow I might do it and I wasn’t online much yesterday as I didn’t see much of the game but I saw posts having a serious pop at Udogie, I saw someone say Ange is just like Ossie and a couple of posters say his system has been figured out.
TBF his system has been figured out… in that everyone now knows how we play
What that means for each opposition team I guess is varied

I don’t think many, if any teams can deal with us unless they change their team a lot. That is happening
 
TBF his system has been figured out… in that everyone now knows how we play
What that means for each opposition team I guess is varied

I don’t think many, if any teams can deal with us unless they change their team a lot. That is happening
Yeah it was always going to happen. The first 10 games were never representative of reality and I don’t think progress under Ange will be linear.

My fear a bit is that when we are on it, we look sensational but we very rarely control games or large portions of games and I don’t know if we can. We control parts of games and look irresistible while doing it. But when we lose that bit of control, we look very, very vulnerable.
 
It doesn't matter how much time has passed you can always comment on what you've seen and where you think we are as a team - now with that in mind that doesn't mean you can't jump the gun and be too quick to write something/someone off or hail it a success.
 
We cough the ball up too easily and get caught out with too many players forward. City get caught out similarly but it only happens a couple of times per game because they are so good in possession and get away with it. With us it happens repeatedly during the game.

Pep had a horrendous first season trying to play a certain way then when he got the right players we know what happened next. They're actually slightly less gung ho than us from what I can see, no inverted full backs etc.
 
Pep had a horrendous first season trying to play a certain way then when he got the right players we know what happened next. They're actually slightly less gung ho than us from what I can see, no inverted full backs etc.
Cit6 do invert but they have had a lot of injuries to their full back options and haven’t even got a left back now
They also concede almost every game now
 
Cit6 do invert but they have had a lot of injuries to their full back options and haven’t even got a left back now
They also concede almost every game now

Not as good as they were but 2-3 years ago at their peak they were unreal, probably better than the CL winning team when KDB, Mahrez, Silva, Waler, Cancelo etc were at their peak.
 
Great post.

There has actually been little difference in the tone and tempo of performances during the last month. Details are what has made one'great' and another 'brick'...I think the overreaction to yesterday is a key example. We actually played OK all told, especially given the tactics we faced (again!). Our weaknesses were all mistake-based. The concessions, whilst looking like on VdV in two instances, are mistakes system-execution wise further up the pitch. Before that, we created several very good chances and did not take them. We have a couple of players who are very tired and off-form. I think this system is largely really, really good. It was always going to require a season to get to grips with it, and we also need a few key upgrades/squad rotation options of quality. I personally did not think it was a 4-0 game yesterday. Did we play well? Not really, but I think we've lacked a consistent verve and braveness on the ball for some weeks now...it was exciting the way we beat Luton, but that performance was no betteror worse than yesterday save individual errors in attack and defence. Imagine if Luton had taken their free-header in the first half...fine margins...

Agree
 
Yeah it was always going to happen. The first 10 games were never representative of reality and I don’t think progress under Ange will be linear.

My fear a bit is that when we are on it, we look sensational but we very rarely control games or large portions of games and I don’t know if we can. We control parts of games and look irresistible while doing it. But when we lose that bit of control, we look very, very vulnerable.

I think it’s fine to criticise Ange but, for the arguments to hold up, they have to be consistent whether we win or lose IMO.

I don’t track poster’s history so this might be unfair but the overall tone of the message board seems to swing hard depending on the result. I don’t know if that’s because individuals are reacting differently based on results or whether people only come on to post to suit an agenda.

Naturally it’ll be a bit more negative when we lose and positive when we win but it does feel over reactionary at times.

And this place is the most sensible and balanced place to discuss Spurs on the internet IMO.
I think this board is pretty balanced, and what I mean by that is a range of views that are in the main reasoned and thought out (sans the OMT thread of course!). Probably that impression is enhanced by the state of football 'discussion' found elsewhere on the interweb.

I think the discussion/debates/arguments get a little conflicted when talking about what is happening now, and what is happening overall (ie the holistic view).

My holistic view is things have turned round massively from last season. The club, as a whole, is a lot more harmonious and, although many new faces behind the scenes are still bedding in, the noises are good. On the field, we are in a position above my expectations. The home and away form are both solid. It's exciting to have witnessed how we can play, with scintillating football for periods this season. The early honeymoon period for Ange has in some ways been a negative for Ange, as expectations rose. But fudge it, I loved those games and the thrill it gave, and it's still evidence of what can be. It was never going to be linear, and we are seeing those bumps in the road.

Some of those bumps are being pointed out, and that's fair. As things we see, if sustained for long enough, then become solid issues and evidence that we are struggling to progress. But we have to have faith that the work is being done (daily) to smooth those bumps out.

The 'now' issues I see are.
When the opposition are in a low block, we have resorted to two touch football. It's too slow. Perhaps it's safer. But too slow. I think we are capable of one touch but perhaps we are scared of being dispossessed and the consequences (which is off message with Ange)
We are not playing to Sonny's strengths, in fact we are playing to his weaknesses.
Richie being back could solve this, but probably means Werner has to sit out because Son has to play?
We are hunting for the midfield mix. That hunt is probably contributing to the defence being exposed.
Too many defensive corners are landing on an attackers head. Set-up issue?, probably.
I think when we concede it knocks us. I think that can sometimes be the type of goal we concede. Mentally we look rocked. Hence an Ange reset at half time has helped (or subs). We do keep trying, I'm not saying we give up!
Btw I don't think we are looking to control games...not in the traditional sense.

These things are only a problem if they persist. It's still early days for Ange, and as the season runs to it's conclusion, he is probably only fully learning now what each and every one of these players has to offer. Some would have surprised him, some disappointed.

If it does require new personnel(for example), we literally can't do anything about that until the summer.

And let's not forget it's a learning curve for him. This IS a tough league, top class players, smart players and smart managers.
 
TBF his system has been figured out… in that everyone now knows how we play
What that means for each opposition team I guess is varied

I don’t think many, if any teams can deal with us unless they change their team a lot. That is happening
Yes, Antony Gordon said after the game that they specifically changed how they play because of our threat. They abandoned a more open style of play that would have given us opportunity and instead went man-to-man across the pitch.

A couple of things there.
1) I suppose it's a compliment that such a stark change was made but then an indictment that it worked so well.
And why did it work so well for them to go man-to-man? Not because that is the weakness of Ange's system and the way anyone could counter it. It's just a different problem to overcome and that is through a combination of our individual players having the skill, mentality and tactical awareness to beat their men.

2) I am still on board with Ange's dogmatic 'this is the way we play and we change for no-one'. In part because I think he'll actually step slightly back from that when he feels the players have properly got what he wants them to do on a better and more consistent basis. But we did just get a brutal lesson in the upside of occasionally adjusting and preparing in direct response to your opponent's strengths.
 
Yes, Antony Gordon said after the game that they specifically changed how they play because of our threat. They abandoned a more open style of play that would have given us opportunity and instead went man-to-man across the pitch.

A couple of things there.
1) I suppose it's a compliment that such a stark change was made but then an indictment that it worked so well.
And why did it work so well for them to go man-to-man? Not because that is the weakness of Ange's system and the way anyone could counter it. It's just a different problem to overcome and that is through a combination of our individual players having the skill, mentality and tactical awareness to beat their men.

2) I am still on board with Ange's dogmatic 'this is the way we play and we change for no-one'. In part because I think he'll actually step slightly back from that when he feels the players have properly got what he wants them to do on a better and more consistent basis. But we did just get a brutal lesson in the upside of occasionally adjusting and preparing in direct response to your opponent's strengths.
It worked because we made the mistakes, not them
If it goes the other way it’s a Villa 4 nil
It’s why the system isn’t the issue IMO, it’s the execution
When you can pin point what went wrong you can try to fix it
When you can’t, the system then has flaws
 
It worked because we made the mistakes, not them
If it goes the other way it’s a Villa 4 nil
It’s why the system isn’t the issue IMO, it’s the execution
When you can pin point what went wrong you can try to fix it
When you can’t, the system then has flaws
100% my belief at the moment
 
It worked because we made the mistakes, not them
If it goes the other way it’s a Villa 4 nil
It’s why the system isn’t the issue IMO, it’s the execution
When you can pin point what went wrong you can try to fix it
When you can’t, the system then has flaws
It is a (short term) worry when a seriously depleted team (Saudi Sportswashing Machine) and a Jekyll and Hyde team (Fulham) can instigate a tactical approach that stifles us and leads to defeat. If we found our match in City, Liverpool or Arsenal one could perhaps understand why (and we are about to find that out).

The flip of that thinking is we've laid out our plan and teams will analyse that and adjust (a compliment in a sense). Plus each time we take a hit we need to resist it knocking us off track. It's just new challenges to solve. We have some problems with our own gameplay at the moment that are nothing to do with the opposition. Sonny being the main one (that's not a criticism of Sonny, just the reality of what he is being asked to do).
Speed of thought, confidence and bravery are all down a bit imo. Individual errors are up and defensive corners wobbly...all fixable.
 
It is a (short term) worry when a seriously depleted team (Saudi Sportswashing Machine) and a Jekyll and Hyde team (Fulham) can instigate a tactical approach that stifles us and leads to defeat. If we found our match in City, Liverpool or Arsenal one could perhaps understand why (and we are about to find that out).

The flip of that thinking is we've laid out our plan and teams will analyse that and adjust (a compliment in a sense). Plus each time we take a hit we need to resist it knocking us off track. It's just new challenges to solve. We have some problems with our own gameplay at the moment that are nothing to do with the opposition. Sonny being the main one (that's not a criticism of Sonny, just the reality of what he is being asked to do).
Speed of thought, confidence and bravery are all down a bit imo. Individual errors are up and defensive corners wobbly...all fixable.
We’re on the same page
Fulham don’t win that game if we score the chances we had. We didn’t, we missed them and they scored.. first goal is key away form home as we know
Saudi Sportswashing Machine.. we were the better side with and without the ball but they have pace. Sonny and Cher lose it by not being decisive.. they bang it down our end and the mainstay of our defence falls over. That doesn’t happen very often (there were other issues too). The fact he slipped again for another goal says a lot
But… I’ll sound like a broken record… if these teams adjust and play a low block, we have to to have a CF making life harder for their centre backs. The chances we missed vs Fulham and Saudi Sportswashing Machine were not from our striker because the guy playing as striker was not in the box. That’s a big fix.
No coincidence in those games and others too, the outball for the opposition has been their form striker (isak, Muniz) who have played central and literally off our CBS
The defensive ones take more things to change too of course
 
But it's the benchmark we have to measure from given it was the stale ugliness that Postecoglu was charged with changing. He has done that and then some. A lot. The club in general is in a far, far happier and healthier state in all manner of ways.
Repeating myself, the low benchmark was in reference to the amount of goals conceded being two less than last year and still with a run of really tough games to come. If you're happy with an improvement of only two goals knock yourself out.
It wasn't a comment on the overall impact of Ange which has been great.
 
It worked because we made the mistakes, not them
If it goes the other way it’s a Villa 4 nil
It’s why the system isn’t the issue IMO, it’s the execution
When you can pin point what went wrong you can try to fix it
When you can’t, the system then has flaws

You could say their system caused us to make the mistakes, pressure generally leads to mistakes but yeah if our system was perfectly in sync it would likely have counteracted whatever they can throw at us 80% of the time but we aren't there yet and probably 1-2 seasons away from it at least.
 
Back