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Ange’s system / formation

Bedfordspurs said:
View attachment 17016

Didn’t know where to put this
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We have lots of touches but again as I keep saying we don't really have dribblers or players who take ppl on in the box so the opposition defenders aren't having to make rash challenges which lead to penalties. We keep rotating the ball looking for an opening but without the precision pass or the body swerve, the dribble etc the attack eventually peters out usually due to a heavy touch or just a bad pass.
 
thfcsteff said:
Great post.

There has actually been little difference in the tone and tempo of performances during the last month. Details are what has made one'great' and another 'brick'...I think the overreaction to yesterday is a key example. We actually played OK all told, especially given the tactics we faced (again!). Our weaknesses were all mistake-based. The concessions, whilst looking like on VdV in two instances, are mistakes system-execution wise further up the pitch. Before that, we created several very good chances and did not take them. We have a couple of players who are very tired and off-form. I think this system is largely really, really good. It was always going to require a season to get to grips with it, and we also need a few key upgrades/squad rotation options of quality. I personally did not think it was a 4-0 game yesterday. Did we play well? Not really, but I think we've lacked a consistent verve and braveness on the ball for some weeks now...it was exciting the way we beat Luton, but that performance was no betteror worse than yesterday save individual errors in attack and defence. Imagine if Luton had taken their free-header in the first half...fine margins...
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I’m not sure I agree with this. The chances we created against Saudi Sportswashing Machine weren’t great ones and I don’t think there were several of them. Two chances for Werner, one with the ball arriving at pace at an awkward height with him also running at pace and another (the easier of the two chances IMO) giving him very little time to sort his feet. I’d say those two chances combined probably only had XG of around 0.5.

We were well beaten by the better team at the weekend. A team that had better work rate, more physicality, more creativity and better tactics for the game. I thought 4-0 was about the fair result overall on balance of chances.
 
Finney Is Back said:
I’m not sure I agree with this. The chances we created against Saudi Sportswashing Machine weren’t great ones and I don’t think there were several of them. Two chances for Werner, one with the ball arriving at pace at an awkward height with him also running at pace and another (the easier of the two chances IMO) giving him very little time to sort his feet. I’d say those two chances combined probably only had XG of around 0.5.

We were well beaten by the better team at the weekend. A team that had better work rate, more physicality, more creativity and better tactics for the game. I thought 4-0 was about the fair result overall on balance of chances.
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We were at 0.5 xG at half time.
 
tommysvr said:
I agree with most of what you say, except this. It’s all relative. It’s not like Brisbane Roar, Yokohama F Marinos and Celtic were full of Premier League players. He got players of a much lower level to play that way and absolutely dominate teams and the league.

The thing he needed at those clubs, and the thing he needs here is time.
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Agree that time is needed.

However, not sure about the comparison to the other leagues, given the overall quality of the opposition in those examples, which will have been lower than anything he will be facing in the PL.

There’s also the fact that Celtic were the Emirates Marketing Project of their league during Ange’s time there (not sure if that’s the case with Brisbane and Yokohama) and so, relatively speaking, they had players of a much higher quality than their opponents.
 
Bishop said:
We have lots of touches but again as I keep saying we don't really have dribblers or players who take ppl on in the box so the opposition defenders aren't having to make rash challenges which lead to penalties. We keep rotating the ball looking for an opening but without the precision pass or the body swerve, the dribble etc the attack eventually peters out usually due to a heavy touch or just a bad pass.
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Yep that’s the case imo too
No one keeping the ball in the area and again… no focal point getting taken out
The opposition just sit there waiting for us to do something
 
Mikey10 said:
Agree that time is needed.

However, not sure about the comparison to the other leagues, given the overall quality of the opposition in those examples, which will have been lower than anything he will be facing in the PL.

There’s also the fact that Celtic were the Emirates Marketing Project of their league during Ange’s time there (not sure if that’s the case with Brisbane and Yokohama) and so, relatively speaking, they had players of a much higher quality than their opponents.
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Everything is relative though
Opposition better, but the standard of players and facilities here is better too
Hence we have down really well against the better sides, because we have the tools
Celtic your right but with that comes pressure and expectation which adds different context to how teams perform
 
Finney Is Back said:
I’m not sure I agree with this. The chances we created against Saudi Sportswashing Machine weren’t great ones and I don’t think there were several of them. Two chances for Werner, one with the ball arriving at pace at an awkward height with him also running at pace and another (the easier of the two chances IMO) giving him very little time to sort his feet. I’d say those two chances combined probably only had XG of around 0.5.

We were well beaten by the better team at the weekend. A team that had better work rate, more physicality, more creativity and better tactics for the game. I thought 4-0 was about the fair result overall on balance of chances.
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Some people thought they were tap ins for Werner
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Some people thought they were tap ins for Werner
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Having seen them again tap ins was a bit strong. That said, I expected him to score both and not hit the target with either was poor. When he misses, he misses by miles, he doesn’t hit the post or force a great save, they go 10 yards over the bar or go off for a throw in. Nunez at least gets them on target and forces a save.
 
Jordinho said:
That's the narrative we get fed. Werner is to be mocked and laughed at, while Darwin Nunez is some kind of erratic genius.
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Probably the reason they won’t win the league (Nunez). They’re so wasteful in front of goal. They create so many chances. Even Salah has been missing gilt edged chances recently.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Jesus is not a top player. I’m still surprised Arsenal went for him after city decided he wasn’t good enough to lead their attack. He has his good qualities but he will let you down in front of goal more often than not.
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Most players are like that. Even Haaland misses a decent chunk of chances

We have been lucky to see some outstanding finishers recently
 
Jurgen the German said:
Having seen them again tap ins was a bit strong. That said, I expected him to score both and not hit the target with either was poor. When he misses, he misses by miles, he doesn’t hit the post or force a great save, they go 10 yards over the bar or go off for a throw in. Nunez at least gets them on target and forces a save.
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Nunez does everything and nothing
I’ve seen him score worldies, hit the roof and miss an open goal
The guys nuts
But his work rate is borderline aggressive and that’s why their fans love him. That involvement in everything is huge
Werner isnt that player and doesnt play that role . Nunez is Cf so it’s sonny that comparable and him and Nunez are like chalk and cheese
 
Bishop said:
The same people who criticise Werner are the same people who criticise Nunez and Jesus ie. myself. Neither are good enough and I wouldn't want either of the two at Spurs either.
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There is a dearth of experienced scorers and capable wide forwards in the game

You now see players getting there later like Toney or Watkins here, Guirassy in Germany. them some that moved too early but may still be good like Scamaca

You also have the possible step up players like Sesko who could be anything or Gyokeres who is smashing them in and assisting too in Portugal. You have the likes of Giminez in Holland but we know the history of those gambles

it’s a real gamble whatever we do next but we need something unless Ange gets braver with our own youth

One thing I’ll throw in is the lad who went to Palace from a Blackburn, Wharton, has been brilliant in that 6 role . They love him already
 
tommysvr said:
I agree with most of what you say, except this. It’s all relative. It’s not like Brisbane Roar, Yokohama F Marinos and Celtic were full of Premier League players. He got players of a much lower level to play that way and absolutely dominate teams and the league.

The thing he needed at those clubs, and the thing he needs here is time.
Click to expand...

Mikey10 said:
Agree that time is needed.

However, not sure about the comparison to the other leagues, given the overall quality of the opposition in those examples, which will have been lower than anything he will be facing in the PL.

There’s also the fact that Celtic were the Emirates Marketing Project of their league during Ange’s time there (not sure if that’s the case with Brisbane and Yokohama) and so, relatively speaking, they had players of a much higher quality than their opponents.
Click to expand...

Bedfordspurs said:
Everything is relative though
Opposition better, but the standard of players and facilities here is better too
Hence we have down really well against the better sides, because we have the tools
Celtic your right but with that comes pressure and expectation which adds different context to how teams perform
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I agree that things are relative as you move up the levels with one exception.

I think it's a given that defending and preventing goals is an easier task than scoring them. The problem is at PL and CL level attacking players are at the level where they will make you pay.
At a lower level teams will not have the quality, or know how to punish you more often than not. ie they let you off.
So if you run a scheme that almost guarantees some good attacking opportunities for the opposition (regardless if your dominating) it might bite you on the arse. And if you expand that out to possibly only being allowed to lose 2-3-4 games a season to be league winners...it might not compute.

It's probably why City (pep) were so tinkled about Kane/Sonny as they would have thought 'hey we are better' but those pesky sharp shooters make us pay.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out for sure.
 
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ricky2tricky4city said:
:mad::mad:I agree that things are relative as you move up the levels with one exception.

I think it's a given that defending and preventing goals is an easier task than scoring them. The problem is at PL and CL level attacking players are at the level where they will make you pay.
At a lower level teams will not have the quality or know how to punish you more often than not. ie they let you off.
So if you run a scheme that almost guarantees some good attacking opportunities for the opposition (regardless if your dominating) it might bite you on the arse. And if you expand that out to possibly only being allowed to lose 2-3-4 games a season to be league winners...it might not compute.

It's probably why City (pep) were so tinkled about Kane/Sonny as they would have thought 'hey we are better' but those pesky sharp shooters make us pay.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out for sure.
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Quite probable TBF
I’d argue teams can defend better
Players can finish better
People are faster and strong
Everyone has to adapt

But the key as you say is they make you pay

I wouldn’t mind if that was what hurting us.. but it’s not amazing finishers hurting us all the time. It’s some bang average players doing their job
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Quite probable TBF
I’d argue teams can defend better
Players can finish better
People are faster and strong
Everyone has to adapt

But the key as you say is they make you pay

I wouldn’t mind if that was what hurting us.. but it’s not amazing finishers hurting us all the time. It’s some bang average players doing their job
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There are no bang average players in the league - I think that's the point. They may be average relative to other players in the league but they are all capable of punishing mistakes. That's something Ange's philosophy will not have encountered before (not that I'm an expert on Japanese or Australian football but I'm relatively familiar with Scotland).
 
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