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Ingerlund

Mcfee said:
I don’t think Rice will ever be a Kroos type player. He’s a destructive player not a creator, and he’s good at what he does, a big influence behind Arsenal’s impressive defensive stats.
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ricky2tricky4city said:
You have to remember...many of our better players come from well functioning teams....they don't look so good in a poorly functioning team.

I'd say only Kane and Bellingham have the ability to impact a game regardless of what else is going on around them
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I think this is the crux, the players and manager don't align.
They're great players in their club systems, but even playing in the same position for their country they don't reach the same levels because it is a different system, not a system suited to thier strengths.
We see it with ange at spurs, we are trying to move on players who are good players but they are not suitable to his system.
 
braineclipse said:
Agreed. England easily have good enough players to do well to the tournament and be in with a chance to win it. Not favourites, not particularly likely to win it, but definitely in with a chance. And that of course can still happen.

But they need to figure out how to get width down both flanks. Can't think of many teams that are successful at this kind of level that just abandons width on one side.

Also. TAA has absolutely fantastic passing ability. So let's play him and make sure there's no one wide on the opposite side of him and not much running in behind with pace.

I accept that Southgate knows a lot more about football than me. But to me it seems like he's getting the basics wrong tactically and the basics are so important in international football.
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TAA is a great passer and great from a dead ball position but he offers nothing else. His awareness of what's going on around him is terrible.
He will get bypassed in midfield and as FB he is constantly at fault for goals conceded. If Southgate didn't think he was a good option for the last couple of years I don't get what he sees that has changed that.
 
DubSpur said:
TAA is a great passer and great from a dead ball position but he offers nothing else. His awareness of what's going on around him is terrible.
He will get bypassed in midfield and as FB he is constantly at fault for goals conceded. If Southgate didn't think he was a good option for the last couple of years I don't get what he sees that has changed that.
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His passing may be enough to compensate in the right system. In some ways that's what people want, sacrifice some defensive solidity for quality on the ball. I guess Southgate is trying to get more attacking quality.

But even Kroos, Pirlo and Alonso needed/needs someone to pass the ball to. No use being able to ping a ball 50 meters with great accuracy if play is so congested that there's no one in space to receive it and no one running in behind onto space.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
You have to remember...many of our better players come from well functioning teams....they don't look so good in a poorly functioning team.

I'd say only Kane and Bellingham have the ability to impact a game regardless of what else is going on around them
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Don't think they need a well functioning team even. Just a basic functional setup that gets the basic rights (usually what one can realistically expect at these tournaments) would get a lot out of these players.

Seriously. Who plays with anything similar to a Trippier - Foden on the left flank? I really struggle for comparisons.
 
braineclipse said:
His passing may be enough to compensate in the right system. In some ways that's what people want, sacrifice some defensive solidity for quality on the ball. I guess Southgate is trying to get more attacking quality.

But even Kroos, Pirlo and Alonso needed/needs someone to pass the ball to. No use being able to ping a ball 50 meters with great accuracy if play is so congested that there's no one in space to receive it and no one running in behind onto space.
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That would be fine if there was a top quality defence behind him, but there isn't. That defence needs proper screening in front of it.
Might get away with in the next game but not against top quality teams. Spains midfield would tear England apart with TAA in it.
 
thfcsteff said:
The sheer lack of courage from Southgate is staggering.
Play Bellingham alongside Rice BUT with licence to roam...play Foden as a 10, allow Kane to drop into pockets/interchange and Foden to sometimes false 9, and get Palmer or Eze on wide so as with Saka you can stretch the pitch and allow the Bellinghams to come from deep or the Kanes to drop in and play Saka, etc. Instead he nullifes Kane and Foden's wider talents and plays a square peg in a round hole.
I don't get it.
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This 100% Also our slow tempo in midfield makes it even worse.

Not having Grealish or Maddison is also mind blowing. This team is crying out for someone like Grealish that can run with the ball & pass. He could play 2 or 3 positions in the system above. Would be the first name on the team sheet for me, but not even in the squad. (Prob for Toney who won’t even get on the pitch, or Bowden who is brick)
 
DubSpur said:
That would be fine if there was a top quality defence behind him, but there isn't. That defence needs proper screening in front of it.
Might get away with in the next game but not against top quality teams. Spains midfield would tear England apart with TAA in it.
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Agreed. Probably makes this experiment even stranger. Why try it if it's not going to be something you can stick with through tougher games as well.
 
braineclipse said:
Don't think they need a well functioning team even. Just a basic functional setup that gets the basic rights (usually what one can realistically expect at these tournaments) would get a lot out of these players.

Seriously. Who plays with anything similar to a Trippier - Foden on the left flank? I really struggle for comparisons.
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That’s why everyone’s so frustrated. It’s not “we expect to win”. It’s that we have a wealth of quality players and THIS is how the manager chooses to line-up match after match.
 
elyid said:
That’s why everyone’s so frustrated. It’s not “we expect to win”. It’s that we have a wealth of quality players and THIS is how the manager chooses to line-up match after match.
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From the outside more than a little funny (sorry about that). I do really get the frustration though.

As is quite typical the big name players are then criticised. And I get that Southgate is getting stick too.

I think sometimes tactics gets over valued. There's a lot of interesting things that good and great managers do that works, but probably only has a small marginal impact. Gets a lot of attention, to me is interesting and fun, but ultimately player quality is the main decisive factor most of the time.

But where tactics really make a difference is when it's not functional. Can reduce the impact of even quality players so much. Then I think tactics gets under valued and you end up with X player let his country down type narratives. Along with a lot of legitimate frustration like yours.
 
DubSpur said:
That would be fine if there was a top quality defence behind him, but there isn't. That defence needs proper screening in front of it.
Might get away with in the next game but not against top quality teams. Spains midfield would tear England apart with TAA in it.
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This is the crux, the midfield is really weak, and both CB’s are “second CB’s”, who have a stronger/more vocal partner at their club.

There is no control in the middle of the pitch.
 
Baleforce said:
I think Southgate has that to be fair, he's worked himself into the position where he could take so many risks with the squad, although in his defence, nobody was complaining about Henderson or Sterling finally being dropped, the omission of Dier and Grealish raised my eyebrows, but seemingly not everybody's.

The talent just isn't there.
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It never will be as long as we have 6 or 7 average overseas players in most teams. I know people will say the kids aren't good enough but we'll never know as long as managers get the sack after 6 months they aren't going to risk their jobs.
 
braineclipse said:
From the outside more than a little funny (sorry about that). I do really get the frustration though.

As is quite typical the big name players are then criticised. And I get that Southgate is getting stick too.

I think sometimes tactics gets over valued. There's a lot of interesting things that good and great managers do that works, but probably only has a small marginal impact. Gets a lot of attention, to me is interesting and fun, but ultimately player quality is the main decisive factor most of the time.

But where tactics really make a difference is when it's not functional. Can reduce the impact of even quality players so much. Then I think tactics gets under valued and you end up with X player let his country down type narratives. Along with a lot of legitimate frustration like yours.
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Good point about tactics. I.e there are a lot of ways a good team can be functional. Man U of the 90s were primarily devastating due to their mentality.

I think where it does matter are things like tempo, mentality and players positions on the pitch. For example, being noticeably slow/defensive when going 1-0 up. Playing so slow that Foden gets the ball when he’s surrounded.

We’ve seen this with us (I.e no use playing the ball to Johnson in a crowd of players, but over the top he can be a threat).

However, there is a caveat that fans want to see the players “run around a bit” when full tempo every match might not be ideal for a tournament.

Ultimately fans just want to enjoy watching the team & it is Southgate’s conservatism that is reducing that atm.
 
I thought that most of that side should be embarrassed at their own performances yesterday. And what on Earth was Kyle Walker banging on about in his post-match interview? If he thinks that anyone believes that rubbish then he’s in cloud cuckoo land. These players get butt hurt when people have the audacity to criticise them for poor performances, presumably because ‘you’ve never played the game to international level’.

I’d change a lot of that side for next time:

Saka - I don’t buy into the hype. His end product is too often lacking, or zero. And yes, I know I am biased.

Rice - again, I know I’m biased. But how many times did he play teammates into a corner or cheaply give the ball away?

TAA - simply doesn’t work in midfield.

Trippier - what other serious ‘contender’ would start without a LB?

Foden or Bellingham - both tremendous players. But if we can’t find a way for them to play together then one of them needs to give. Thought they were both pony yesterday.

If we can’t find a LB then maybe we should play with three at the back and two up front? I am slightly perplexed as to why Kane apparently can’t press or play with any energy any more, like he’s some kind of veteran: he’s 30!

Special mention to the pitch: probably the biggest disgrace on show.
 
The passing last night was terrible, even in situation where the player on the ball had no pressure on them. I started playing in early 60's and it was always drilled in to us to pass and move, avoid passing to someone standing still and don't stop the ball moving. Last night in one of our few periods of possession players stopped the on 8 successive stages, you make it easy for your opponents doing this. Having Foden and Saka chained to the touch line may widen the pitch but if no one is moving into the space it's pointless. TAA has shown over many seasons hes not very good defending so how Southgate believes he can do a good job as a holding midfield in baffling, he has no positional awareness, with Rice and TAA standing on the CB bootlaces we surrender the midfield and our only out ball is to Kane with 2/3 players around him and only Bellingham trying to support or pick up loose balls. This team look as though there is no plan or understanding what they should be doing.

Football has changed dramatically since I first played, I don't understand the sophisticated hybrid with its bingo numbers and inverted players, a managers job was to get the best out of what is available to him, it now appears a manager must have a system and it can only succeed if he has the right players for it.

Last night it appeared neither the manager or the players knew what the system or the objective was.
 
If we had of been able to scrape a win last night then he could have rotated for the last game (Played Gordon, Palmer, Wharton, put Foden central etc.) and possibly realised some of the things that we are missing... now we need a result though it will probably just be more of the same :(
 
dingdongo said:
If we had of been able to scrape a win last night then he could have rotated for the last game (Played Gordon, Palmer, Wharton, put Foden central etc.) and possibly realised some of the things that we are missing... now we need a result though it will probably just be more of the same :(
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Probably take the lead after 25-30 mins and then sit back and try grind it out.

The attempted assassination of Kane on the BEEB post game was atrocious, all of them talking absolute gonads and when Kane basically confirmed he was playing based on tactics and instructions in his interview they all shut up.
 
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