Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[ricky2tricky4city]

A lot of that is still relevant now.
The EEC position is interesting; it's almost like the actions of 1980-2009 created an unsustainable position and then a frog man came along, used the EU as a straw man (instead of pointing towards i. UK Gov decisions (he couldn't, "Rule Britiania"! and ii. The banking sector (don't bite the hand that feeds you) for all the issues, and people fell for it.

I find myself agreeing with your summation of events post 2009... certainly adds up on first reading. Interesting.

Just too add, i wouldn't include the latter part of the eighties as ' boom time'

 

[monkeybarry]

The country was a mess and a very good part of that mess was created by the previous Labour government, less than five years before.
So why didn't they put any of those policies in place then?
Why were they not in the labour manifesto for the 1979 election?

I wasn't born, so have absolutely no idea!

 

[monkeybarry]

I find myself agreeing with your summation of events post 2009... certainly adds up on first reading. Interesting.

Just too add, i wouldn't include the latter part of the eighties as ' boom time'

I was still in primary school in late 80s so my view is largely based on documentary on stories.
Wasn't the mid-late 80s the start of start of deregulation of finance taking hold? Generating wealth? Maybe it was too narrowly focused to be considered boom time for most people?

 

[glasgowspur]

I wasn't born, so have absolutely no idea!

The whole strikes, poor man of Europe, going to the imf with the begging bowl out and even the devaluation of the pound are often overlooked.
Throw in the three say, oil shortages and it's difficult to see where this golden age was.

 

[Mikey10]

The country was a mess and a very good part of that mess was created by the previous Labour government, less than five years before.
So why didn't they put any of those policies in place then?
Why were they not in the labour manifesto for the 1979 election?

Thatcherism is at the root of almost every problem the U.K. faces today. Neil Kinnock saw it clearly and called it out in 1983.

 

[Diamond Lights]

So who are the Brexit lot in here? How do you feel about it?

I ask because obviously Nigel Farage being shoved down our throats again. Just blows my mind really. I mean, all those things that were promised haven't come to fruition and yet, people think he's got the answers and want to vote for him again.

Incredible. Imagine someone continually lying to you and yet time and time again you believe them. Why? Please I need to know.

 

[glasgowspur]

Thatcherism is at the root of almost every problem the U.K. faces today. Neil Kinnock saw it clearly and called it out in 1983.

Yeah, because everything was golden before that.
Look at the reasons thatcher got elected, the country was on it's knees.
The real issue, which kinnock called correctly, wasn't Thatcher getting elected, it was her being re elected.
She should have been a one term enema, a purge to get rid of the poop and washed away along with it.

 

[monkeybarry]

The whole strikes, poor man of Europe, going to the imf with the begging bowl out and even the devaluation of the pound are often overlooked.
Throw in the three say, oil shortages and it's difficult to see where this golden age was.

So, a bit of a deflection-ist manifesto? Using the EEC as a spacegoat and Idealistic policies then don't matter because they'll never get the opportunity to implement them?

 

[monkeybarry]

So who are the Brexit lot in here? How do you feel about it?

I ask because obviously Nigel Farage being shoved down our throats again. Just blows my mind really. I mean, all those things that were promised haven't come to fruition and yet, people think he's got the answers and want to vote for him again.

Incredible. Imagine someone continually lying to you and yet time and time again you believe them. Why? Please I need to know.

As a general principle, there is a lot of comfort and security in lies when the truth is harder to incorporate into our lives.

 

[glasgowspur]

So who are the Brexit lot in here? How do you feel about it?

I ask because obviously Nigel Farage being shoved down our throats again. Just blows my mind really. I mean, all those things that were promised haven't come to fruition and yet, people think he's got the answers and want to vote for him again.

Incredible. Imagine someone continually lying to you and yet time and time again you believe them. Why? Please I need to know.

I'm firmly remain, so can't answer from a personal viewpoint.
However too many people just can't admit they are/where wrong on these kinds of issues.
They either dig in or completely forget that they ever supported it.
Look at Blair, everyone loved him, rode into power as the messiah, try finding someone who will admit voting for him now.
Or sturgeon, two years ago she was the best politician in the world.
Gone. Don't mention her.
It's OK to be wrong , just admit and try fix it, don't keep digging.

 

[glasgowspur]

So, a bit of a deflection-ist manifesto? Using the EEC as a spacegoat and Idealistic policies then don't matter because they'll never get the opportunity to implement them?

Or find a way to wriggle out of them.

 

[Mikey10]

Yeah, because everything was golden before that.
Look at the reasons thatcher got elected, the country was on it's knees.
The real issue, which kinnock called correctly, wasn't Thatcher getting elected, it was her being re elected.
She should have been a one term enema, a purge to get rid of the poop and washed away along with it.

Once you tell a country there’s no such thing as society; dismantle its manufacturing industries as part of an ideological war, with no plan as to how to replace them; misunderstand economics to the degree that you attempt to run a nation’s economy like a household budget; and put a nation’s future in the hands of disaster capitalists, assuming that the supremely wealthy will allow wealth to ‘trickle down’ to the rest of us, you end up where we are today.

I'm firmly remain, so can't answer from a personal viewpoint.
However too many people just can't admit they are/where wrong on these kinds of issues.
They either dig in or completely forget that they ever supported it.
Look at Blair, everyone loved him, rode into power as the messiah, try finding someone who will admit voting for him now.
Or sturgeon, two years ago she was the best politician in the world.
Gone. Don't mention her.
It's OK to be wrong , just admit and try fix it, don't keep digging.

No problem admitting that I voted for Blair. Every primary and secondary school in my home town was either refurbished or rebuilt under his government, as was the local hospital; my children benefitted from funding for nursery places; Britain became a more tolerant and welcoming place, and was seen as a serious nation. He did a huge amount that was good before Iraq - it was wrong (although in the context of how the world felt post 9/11, I have some understanding of how we ended up where we did on that).

 

[glasgowspur]

No plan, totally agree, but the industries were already crumbling and not only was there no plan but the finance wasn't there to implement a plan. All pre Thatcher.

I grew up in the 70s in one of the most deprived areas of Glasgow.
A slum, with strikes, power cuts, civil unrest and economic uncertainty all around. Mostly under labour.
Early 80s the house were renovated, Central heating, double glazed, new kitchen and bathroom.
All under Thatcher.
We can all pick and choose the good and the bad from every government.
Thatcher is the gift that keeps on giving for labour, she's the bogey woman, when things look dodgy or they need to duck responsibility for some them they wheel out thatcher.
This is true for any government, but Thatcher got in and continued to get back in because the alternatives were awful.

 

[Mikey10]

No plan, totally agree, but the industries were already crumbling and not only was there no plan but the finance wasn't there to implement a plan. All pre Thatcher.

I grew up in the 70s in one of the most deprived areas of Glasgow.
A slum, with strikes, power cuts, civil unrest and economic uncertainty all around. Mostly under labour.
Early 80s the house were renovated, Central heating, double glazed, new kitchen and bathroom.
All under Thatcher.
We can all pick and choose the good and the bad from every government.
Thatcher is the gift that keeps on giving for labour, she's the bogey woman, when things look dodgy or they need to duck responsibility for some them they wheel out thatcher.
This is true for any government, but Thatcher got in and continued to get back in because the alternatives were awful.

She got back in because of the Falklands, and because she had the right-wing media behind her.

She may have refurbished some houses but she sold hundreds of thousands of council houses off, heralding the start of the out-of-kilter rise in prices which sees young people today unable to get on to the housing ladder. Drive around former mining areas in Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire, among other places, to see the communities she destroyed that have never recovered.

 

[Gutter Boy]

So who are the Brexit lot in here? How do you feel about it?

I ask because obviously Nigel Farage being shoved down our throats again. Just blows my mind really. I mean, all those things that were promised haven't come to fruition and yet, people think he's got the answers and want to vote for him again.

Incredible. Imagine someone continually lying to you and yet time and time again you believe them. Why? Please I need to know.

For me Brexit was about repatriating power from Brussels to Westminster. I never wanted the Tories to inherit that power, but Corbyn betrayed everyone.

Soon hopefully someone is going to be able to use that power for good, and move us away from the Washington Consensus path, which would never have been possible in the EU

 

[P.D.]

Once you tell a country there’s no such thing as society; dismantle its manufacturing industries as part of an ideological war, with no plan as to how to replace them; misunderstand economics to the degree that you attempt to run a nation’s economy like a household budget; and put a nation’s future in the hands of disaster capitalists, assuming that the supremely wealthy will allow wealth to ‘trickle down’ to the rest of us, you end up where we are today.


No problem admitting that I voted for Blair. Every primary and secondary school in my home town was either refurbished or rebuilt under his government, as was the local hospital; my children benefitted from funding for nursery places; Britain became a more tolerant and welcoming place, and was seen as a serious nation. He did a huge amount that was good before Iraq - it was wrong (although in the context of how the world felt post 9/11, I have some understanding of how we ended up where we did on that).

Anyone can upgrade hospitals using PFI, 13bn spent and paying back 80bn in total. Not exactly a great deal. Most schools were similarly financed.

 

[SteveAWOL]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1801502759356616948

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

All I care about is smashing the Tories so that it takes a generation for the fudging sociopaths to ever get back in, if ever!.

 

[thfcsteff]

No plan, totally agree, but the industries were already crumbling and not only was there no plan but the finance wasn't there to implement a plan. All pre Thatcher.

I grew up in the 70s in one of the most deprived areas of Glasgow.
A slum, with strikes, power cuts, civil unrest and economic uncertainty all around. Mostly under labour.
Early 80s the house were renovated, Central heating, double glazed, new kitchen and bathroom.
All under Thatcher.
We can all pick and choose the good and the bad from every government.
Thatcher is the gift that keeps on giving for labour, she's the bogey woman, when things look dodgy or they need to duck responsibility for some them they wheel out thatcher.
This is true for any government, but Thatcher got in and continued to get back in because the alternatives were awful.

Thatcher designed herself to be ruthless. There will always be the question of whether she forsaw the world coming or simply wanted to replicate the US/Reaganomics, but the facts are that she destroyed the working class, destroyed the concept of unions entirely (they were not blameless BUT she saw an opportunity to smash them entirely and grabbed it) plus she opened the door for the private sector to make billions off utilities and other necessary public services. Labour came in after Heath had buggered about and were immediately slapped in the face with an economy going the 'wrong way' and soaring inflation. BTW don't forget Heath's contribtuion to striking miners - the three day week - which sent a 'fudge you' message rather than ay willingness to discuss/compromise. I'd argue that with Callaghan having to deal with the inflation issue (wages simply did not keep up) we saw the discontent spreading. Thatcher came in with a loud, fresh message (I'll never forget her 'Labour's Not Working' posters with that long unemployment line photographed against a white background - designed by Saatchi & Saatchi) as it was the first time I'd seen politics manipulated in the way consumer goods are all the time by advertising to suggest an 'emotion' we should be having (it still sadly works as we saw with the Brexit bus sham). What she did in terms of housing was actually terrible if you believe in a society, but as she made clear, she didn't believe in it as a concept. Her adoption of more hardline policing (SPG and so on) showed a tip of the hat to her old mate Pinochet, and for me, the unpsoken truth of the '70s 'winter of discontent' is that business owners started to see the opportunity to lessen the power of their workforces, and as such, started to force poorer working conditions. Again, it is well worth saying that the unions should've been smarter and seen it coming earlier, maybe taken a softer approach to their work and relationships too as they did have a lot of power. But you could also say that any concession given to Thatcherite thinking and supporters would not have been met with compromise or even recognition. Heath came in 1970 trying to give tax cuts to big business and carping on about a general 'anti state' approach to things, but it failed. So honestly, I think you can blame the Tories for most of it.

The interesting part of the discussion (for me) is still whether she saw it coming or was simply ruthless. I believe she had a hatred of the working class, despite herself having come from such stock and actually being such a tireless worker herself. I think she genuinely thought that people were inherently lazy and that society had no obligation to it's populations, that if you had little it was because you were lazy (try saying that to underpaid miners who worked their fudging arses off for tantamount to fudge all).

I despised her then just as I do now. It doesn't mean I can't objectivelt agree that she single-handedly changed British society, and that was quite an incredible action with regards to the extent she did...I just despise how she single-handedly waged war on the working class and used them for all her big 'victories'...we should also never forget that the Falklands invasion did not need to happen. Carrington had provided intelligence months earlier that it could happen. She knew she was out that election, so it seems clear that she gambled a jingo-bells Falklands invasion rather than quietly take care of the threat with preventative measure (full disclosure, I think us 'owning' the Falklands is pathetic personally). I'll stop now...

 

[glasgowspur]

Thatcher designed herself to be ruthless. There will always be the question of whether she forsaw the world coming or simply wanted to replicate the US/Reaganomics, but the facts are that she destroyed the working class, destroyed the concept of unions entirely (they were not blameless BUT she saw an opportunity to smash them entirely and grabbed it) plus she opened the door for the private sector to s off utilities and other necessary public services. Labour came in after Heath had buggered about and were immediately slapped in the face with an economy going the 'wrong way' and soaring inflation. BTW don't forget Heath's contribtuion to striking miners - the three day week - which sent a 'fudge you' message rather than ay willingness to discuss/compromise. I'd argue that with Callaghan having to deal with the inflation issue (wages simply did not keep up) we saw the discontent spreading. Thatcher came in with a loud, fresh message (I'll never forget her 'Labour's Not Working' posters with that long unemployment line photographed against a white background - designed by Saatchi & Saatchi) as it was the first time I'd seen politics manipulated in the way consumer goods are all the time by advertising to suggest an 'emotion' we should be having (it still sadly works as we saw with the Brexit bus sham). What she did in terms of housing was actually terrible if you believe in a society, but as she made clear, she didn't believe in it as a concept. Her adoption of more hardline policing (SPG and so on) showed a tip of the hat to her old mate Pinochet, and for me, the unpsoken truth of the '70s 'winter of discontent' is that business owners started to see the opportunity to lessen the power of their workforces, and as such, started to force poorer working conditions. Again, it is well worth saying that the unions should've been smarter and seen it coming earlier, maybe taken a softer approach to their work and relationships too as they did have a lot of power. But you could also say that any concession given to Thatcherite thinking and supporters would not have been met with compromise or even recognition. Heath came in 1970 trying to give tax cuts to big business and carping on about a general 'anti state' approach to things, but it failed. So honestly, I think you can blame the Tories for most of it.

The interesting part of the discussion (for me) is still whether she saw it coming or was simply ruthless. I believe she had a hatred of the working class, despite herself having come from such stock and actually being such a tireless worker herself. I think she genuinely thought that people were inherently lazy and that society had no obligation to it's populations, that if you had little it was because you were lazy (try saying that to underpaid miners who worked their fudging arses off for tantamount to fudge all).

I despised her then just as I do now. It doesn't mean I can't objectivelt agree that she single-handedly changed British society, and that was quite an incredible action with regards to the extent she did...I just despise how she single-handedly waged war on the working class and used them for all her big 'victories'...we should also never forget that the Falklands invasion did not need to happen. Carrington had provided intelligence months earlier that it could happen. She knew she was out that election, so it seems clear that she gambled a jingo-bells Falklands invasion rather than quietly take care of the threat with preventative measure (full disclosure, I think us 'owning' the Falklands is pathetic personally). I'll stop now...

There's a lot in there that I honestly agree with, but there's also quite a bit that think is pretty skewed.
I well remember the power of the unions and the road the country was going down.
And it wasn't just the coal miners, shipyard workers, council workers, car manufacturing were all at it. It was a brick hole.
She was elected because of the state of the country, as a government minister she has to take some of the responsibility for some of it, I can't agree with how she went about it and yes she did go out to smash the unions, but then the unions were out to smash anyone who didn't agree with them.
Compromise was in neither of their vocabulary.

The Falklands was one of those relatively small turning moments, she would have lost if not for that and history might well have viewed her differently.
Personally I think you give her too credit Steff, I don't think she had the intelligence to make sweeping policies, she was blinkered and dogmatic, once an idea was in her mind she rode it for all it was worth. Good or bad.