Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[veryoldspur]

I know injuries get talked about a lot, on here, I'm general around Spurs. I think the negative impact of injuries for us this season still gets understated.

Bournemouth beat Saudi Sportswashing Machine away with 9 first team players missing. In fact, we beat City 4-0 away with many injuries. The team is very poorly managed, and if you can't see that I don't know what you have been watching!

 

[tommysvr]

If Ange wasn't well down the list of candidates then that would really concern me and lead me to question Munn's suitability for the role at Spurs.

I like Ange, think we might as well keep him right now and hope he ends up succeeding at Spurs but he had nothing like the credentials to be managing a club like Spurs.

At risk going through a much-discussed topic...what credentials should we be looking for? Proven PL managers clearly didn't work. I wanted Ange 2 years before he was appointed because he had the backbone to drive the cultural change Spurs needed, among other things.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Porro confirms Tottenham squad stance on Postecoglou

The right-back accepts the club are in a “bad situation”

www.standard.co.uk

 

[veryoldspur]

Another thing that hurts is not being able to separate truth from opinion.

Are you so old that you grew up before they invented epistemology?

When it comes Spurs I believe I have great knowledge. Unlike many supporters, which possibly includes your good self, I have the ability to see my team objectively. In actual fact I prefer to listen to supporters of other clubs than my own, because they don't see Spurs whilst wearing rose tinted glasses. The fact is we are in a relegation because our team has been poorly managed by manager who is tactically inept and totally out of his depth. Yes, we have got injuries, but with the players remaining I consider we are still strong enough to beat most of the sides we are losing against. For heavens sake, we couldn't even beat Tamworth in 90 minutes.

You carry on backing Ange, but I have a sneaky suspicion your not going to tell us how much you miss him when he gets sacked in the next few weeks.

 

[harr1984]

Porro confirms Tottenham squad stance on Postecoglou

The right-back accepts the club are in a “bad situation”

www.standard.co.uk

Has a great right foot and a great attitude does our Porro. Good lad....

 

[billyiddo]

At risk going through a much-discussed topic...what credentials should we be looking for? Proven PL managers clearly didn't work. I wanted Ange 2 years before he was appointed because he had the backbone to drive the cultural change Spurs needed, among other things.

My credentials would be PL proven, but at a non traditional top 4 or money club as opposed to the likes of Jose & Conte who were proven at clubs not facing the challenges we are. I think that covers both Redknapp & Poch our two best managers under Levy - unless I'm missing anyone obvious we haven't had a failure who fits that bill. There are things on top like style of play and by proven I mean taking a bottom/mid table club up to top half and knocking on the door of Europe.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

When it comes Spurs I believe I have great knowledge. Unlike many supporters, which possibly includes your good self, I have the ability to see my team objectively. In actual fact I prefer to listen to supporters of other clubs than my own, because they don't see Spurs whilst wearing rose tinted glasses. The fact is we are in a relegation because our team has been poorly managed by manager who is tactically inept and totally out of his depth. Yes, we have got injuries, but with the players remaining I consider we are still strong enough to beat most of the sides we are losing against. For heavens sake, we couldn't even beat Tamworth in 90 minutes.

You carry on backing Ange, but I have a sneaky suspicion your not going to tell us how much you miss him when he gets sacked in the next few weeks.

Hate to break it to you but your objectiveness might wain a bit if you furnish your 'great knowledge ' via social media.

Supporters of other teams rarely ever know more than 10% of the detail and the ins and outs of rival teams in comparison to that's teams fans (who live and breathe). They can comment, of course, but it's rarely based on anything other than the common surface narratives that are flavour of the week/month at that time.

 

[braineclipse]

Bournemouth beat Saudi Sportswashing Machine away with 9 first team players missing. In fact, we beat City 4-0 away with many injuries. The team is very poorly managed, and if you can't see that I don't know what you have been watching!

Yes. Teams with a lot of injuries can win football matches even against good teams, as we did against City and Liverpool. Those are facts/truths.

The team being "very poorly managed" is an opinion, not a fact, not a truth. It may be true, it may not be, but either way it's an opinion.

I believe the injuries play a much larger part than you do. I also believe that if it was true that we are "very poorly managed" we wouldn't have beaten City or Liverpool with all those injuries.

Part of the issue with our injuries has been with the players unable to play of course. Second and even third choice players not being as good as first choice players.

I agree that the players who have been fit have been good enough to get better results than we've gotten. But just as important as the players missing has been the work load and resulting fatigue for the players that have played. The number, but also lengths of injuries for those missing have left players "good enough" not performing well enough to get those results because they've been left exhausted.

When it comes Spurs I believe I have great knowledge. Unlike many supporters, which possibly includes your good self, I have the ability to see my team objectively. In actual fact I prefer to listen to supporters of other clubs than my own, because they don't see Spurs whilst wearing rose tinted glasses. The fact is we are in a relegation because our team has been poorly managed by manager who is tactically inept and totally out of his depth. Yes, we have got injuries, but with the players remaining I consider we are still strong enough to beat most of the sides we are losing against. For heavens sake, we couldn't even beat Tamworth in 90 minutes.

You carry on backing Ange, but I have a sneaky suspicion your not going to tell us how much you miss him when he gets sacked in the next few weeks.

I will miss him if he's sacked.

You're spot on on one thing. I don't see things objectively. Unlike you I know I don't though. No one sees things objectively.

 

[Muttley]

I doubt anyone would ever expect the list of injuries we've had. I thought we'd gone into the season three men light considering the season likely having 30 plus percent more games this season but even accounting for that I didn't expect quite this many injuries.

You've told me before, but which 3 positions were light in your mind? Did you mean short of quality or numerically light?

I just saw the 5th centre half as where we were numerically light. The rest to me is normal squad composition. Quality can always be improved.

 

[Muttley]

No one sees things objectively.

I think that's the beautiful thing in football. Nobody has the full 360 view of what is going on. Ange is perhaps closest but even he doesn't. He has his own unconscious biases to manage and is only human after all. He certainly doesn't have the tenure we've had with his captain. We've got 10 years. He's had 18 months. Then again, he's had a relationship with Sonny with SK vs Oz. We didn't have that one, unless you're a Spurs supporting SK or Oz fan I guess.

It's one crazy Venn diagram.

 

[braineclipse]

I think that's the beautiful thing in football. Nobody has the full 360 view of what is going on. Ange is perhaps closest but even he doesn't. He has his own unconscious biases to manage and is only human after all. He certainly doesn't have the tenure we've had with his captain. We've got 10 years. He's had 18 months. Then again, he's had a relationship with Sonny with SK vs Oz. We didn't have that one, unless you're a Spurs supporting SK or Oz fan I guess.

It's one crazy Venn diagram.

In football and in life. For sure also frustrating, in both football and life. For sure also a cause of a great deal of problems. And also beautiful, it's part of what makes us human and part of what makes some of us humans football fans.

 

[Finney Is Back]

You've told me before, but which 3 positions were light in your mind? Did you mean short of quality or numerically light?

I just saw the 5th centre half as where we were numerically light. The rest to me is normal squad composition. Quality can always be improved.

We were short of a left back full stop. Regulion hasn't had a future at spurs for a few years and Davies is now really only cover at centre back in this system so we effectively went in to a season that would have lots of games with only one left back, that was really poor squad planning, especially as we knew that we didn't have anyone even remotely close coming through the youths.

We also went in short of a defensive midfield player - Hojbjerg is a player we let go but didn't replace, I think that has shown this season.
I thought we were also short of a creative midfield player, basically being completely reliant on Maddison in that regard. I would probably have tried to bring in somebody like Soler on loan (though he hasn't done at all well at West Ham so that may well have been a bad move)

Cover for Vicario was also inadequate. Really not good that our second choice keeper had such little ability on the ball. We have addressed that now though so that's good.

 

[Muttley]

We were short of a left back full stop. Regulion hasn't had a future at spurs for a few years and Davies is now really only cover at centre back in this system so we effectively went in to a season that would have lots of games with only one left back, that was really poor squad planning, especially as we knew that we didn't have anyone even remotely close coming through the youths.

We also went in short of a defensive midfield player - Hojbjerg is a player we let go but didn't replace, I think that has shown this season.
I thought we were also short of a creative midfield player, basically being completely reliant on Maddison in that regard. I would probably have tried to bring in somebody like Soler on loan (though he hasn't done at all well at West Ham so that may well have been a bad move)

Cover for Vicario was also inadequate. Really not good that our second choice keeper had such little ability on the ball. We have addressed that now though so that's good.

Numerically we had Forster, Austin, Reggie on payroll and had replaced Hoj / Skipp with Gray / Bergval.

So numerically, you're talking about a plus one at centre half and attacking mid. That's 2 more than the squad today. I think you probably wanted Gray / Bergval and another plus one, and you'd like to have seen Reggie sit there doing nothing and still have a new left back as well. Out of your 4 additional, one was a loanee though.

You're a hard man to please

Realistically, I don't think we stood a chance getting all of that. Kinsky a good example. The GK cycle will take until June when Forster walks before we complete a churn cycle you wanted last summer. We were never going to achieve all of that in the market conditions in my opinion.

 

[Grays_1890]

We were short of a left back full stop. Regulion hasn't had a future at spurs for a few years and Davies is now really only cover at centre back in this system so we effectively went in to a season that would have lots of games with only one left back, that was really poor squad planning, especially as we knew that we didn't have anyone even remotely close coming through the youths.

We also went in short of a defensive midfield player - Hojbjerg is a player we let go but didn't replace, I think that has shown this season.
I thought we were also short of a creative midfield player, basically being completely reliant on Maddison in that regard. I would probably have tried to bring in somebody like Soler on loan (though he hasn't done at all well at West Ham so that may well have been a bad move)

Cover for Vicario was also inadequate. Really not good that our second choice keeper had such little ability on the ball. We have addressed that now though so that's good.

No doubt there has been bad planning but equally I don't think Ange has helped himself based on what he has available. I don't like the fact that Reggie is an option now but he is and thats the reality, so not resting players when he has a chance to means he has to use the player anyway. Same with Spence and Porro when he had chances too.

We have had three chances to rest Solanke when up at least 3 nil in the 60th minute and he played him till mid 80s, I think in one game he didn't even come off. That makes zero sense to me, especially when a move to Lanks would have also seen time and experience for him which ironically would have held him in good footing now that we need cover.

Club carries the major fault as with anything I think the manager has part to play here too

 

[veryoldspur]

Yes. Teams with a lot of injuries can win football matches even against good teams, as we did against City and Liverpool. Those are facts/truths.

The team being "very poorly managed" is an opinion, not a fact, not a truth. It may be true, it may not be, but either way it's an opinion.

I believe the injuries play a much larger part than you do. I also believe that if it was true that we are "very poorly managed" we wouldn't have beaten City or Liverpool with all those injuries.

Part of the issue with our injuries has been with the players unable to play of course. Second and even third choice players not being as good as first choice players.

I agree that the players who have been fit have been good enough to get better results than we've gotten. But just as important as the players missing has been the work load and resulting fatigue for the players that have played. The number, but also lengths of injuries for those missing have left players "good enough" not performing well enough to get those results because they've been left exhausted.


I will miss him if he's sacked.

You're spot on on one thing. I don't see things objectively. Unlike you I know I don't though. No one sees things objectively.

Firstly, you are entitled to your opinion of course. You say that if we were poorly managed we wouldn't have beaten City or Liverpool with a depleted side, I would therefore argue we wouldn't have lost against Everton, Ipswich, Wolves or several other lesser clubs we have lost against. We are now called doctor Tottenham, which means when we play poor performing sides we get to cheer them up when they beat us. This is quite funny, but yet true. Under Ange we have become a laughing stock.

I also refuse to believe that two games a week for a professional footballer in their prime should fatigue them. Mo Sala is the same age as Son, he plays every game and shows no signs of being tired. Ange loves to use this as an excuse to help cover his total incompetence as a coach. Although a side note, I find the man arrogant, very dislikeable, and when he is interviewed by the press I think he does himself and the club a disfavour. I have been attending Spurs since 1971 and can't remember a manager I think is more naive or incompetent than this one. Once more though, if you like him that's your choice.

 

[veryoldspur]

Hate to break it to you but your objectiveness might wain a bit if you furnish your 'great knowledge ' via social media.

Supporters of other teams rarely ever know more than 10% of the detail and the ins and outs of rival teams in comparison to that's teams fans (who live and breathe). They can comment, of course, but it's rarely based on anything other than the common surface narratives that are flavour of the week/month at that time.

A manager is, and should be judged on his results. I'll say no more

 

[Finney Is Back]

Numerically we had Forster, Austin, Reggie on payroll and had replaced Hoj / Skipp with Gray / Bergval.

So numerically, you're talking about a plus one at centre half and attacking mid. That's 2 more than the squad today. I think you probably wanted Gray / Bergval and another plus one, and you'd like to have seen Reggie sit there doing nothing and still have a new left back as well. Out of your 4 additional, one was a loanee though.

You're a hard man to please

Realistically, I don't think we stood a chance getting all of that. Kinsky a good example. The GK cycle will take until June when Forster walks before we complete a churn cycle you wanted last summer. We were never going to achieve all of that in the market conditions in my opinion.

I think I am a pretty easy man to please. I seem to be more positive at present than 90% of the people on the forum. I thought we were undercooked for this seasons campaign, that isn't something I've decided recently with hindsight but something I said at the end of the transfer window and I think that has perhaps been proven with what has happened.

You can see the club had no intention of playing Austin and Whiteman by the way they immediately signed Kinsky when Forster got ill.
IMO Forster being on the payroll doesn't automatically make him suitable cover for Vicario, our system needs a keeper who is good with his feet, Forster is anything but. I'm really pleased with the Kinsky signing.

Regi is on our payroll simply because we couldn't shift him. He has proven himself to not be good enough over a few years. We need better.

Replacing Skipp and Hojbjerg with the two 18 year olds will be great for the future. Both players have massively higher upsides than the two they replaced. However, both also still have lots of developing to do and we are therefore weaker in the short term.

Everything we have done and are doing is for the long term from what I can see. That is great. It is why I am actually reasonably happy despite our league position. It seems to me that we are finally trying to do something significant instead of aiming for 6th and hoping for 4th. It seems however that many of those on here are not as patient as I am in this case.

 

[Raziel]

We have had a rebuild since being at Wembley, we only have a few players that are still with us from that time. The problem is that we have bought badly, and we have a manager who can't arrange a p155up in a brewery, let alone a football team

We haven't bought badly, our buying has actually probably been on the edge of spectacular

- Vic, Kinsky
- Porro, Spence, Romero, Dragusin, VDV, Udogie
- Bentancur, Bissouma, Sarr, Gray, Bergvall, Maddison
- Johnson, Deki, Richi, Wilson

Not counting Moore or Vuskovic (who is extremely highly rated)
Not counting the cameo by Perisic (think we would have got CL football if he stayed fit last season)
Philips & Yang yet to be proven

Who's been the flops? Solomon (free), Werner (loan), Veliz, you have to go back 4+ years to get into bad signings.
We got rid of tons of deadwood and refreshed the squad

Are there issues with squad depth and some HG/Association trained impacts? absolutely
Is the squad over-pivoted on youth and probably better suited for 2 years from now? yes
But this idea that we have a brick squad, haven't spent (500M+, 4th highest in past 5 years), don't buy well simply isn't true.

The biggest issue is the wheels have fallen off, and to me that's 100% on the manager
- Had we won against Leicester (tactics), Ipswich (had whole team except VDV), Wolves & got a draw out of 1 of Palace, Brighton, Forest or Saudi Sportswashing Machine, we would be 8th and no one would be having this conversation.

Do I believe injuries and squad depth has an impact = yes
Do I believe it's enough to put us 15th? = no

 

[veryoldspur]

We haven't bought badly, our buying has actually probably been on the edge of spectacular

- Vic, Kinsky
- Porro, Spence, Romero, Dragusin, VDV, Udogie
- Bentancur, Bissouma, Sarr, Gray, Bergvall, Maddison
- Johnson, Deki, Richi, Wilson

Not counting Moore or Vuskovic (who is extremely highly rated)
Not counting the cameo by Perisic (think we would have got CL football if he stayed fit last season)
Philips & Yang yet to be proven

Who's been the flops? Solomon (free), Werner (loan), Veliz, you have to go back 4+ years to get into bad signings.
We got rid of tons of deadwood and refreshed the squad

Are there issues with squad depth and some HG/Association trained impacts? absolutely
Is the squad over-pivoted on youth and probably better suited for 2 years from now? yes
But this idea that we have a brick squad, haven't spent (500M+, 4th highest in past 5 years), don't buy well simply isn't true.

The biggest issue is the wheels have fallen off, and to me that's 100% on the manager
- Had we won against Leicester (tactics), Ipswich (had whole team except VDV), Wolves & got a draw out of 1 of Palace, Brighton, Forest or Saudi Sportswashing Machine, we would be 8th and no one would be having this conversation.

Do I believe injuries and squad depth has an impact = yes
Do I believe it's enough to put us 15th? = no

In general I would agree with that, although some of those players you have listed I believe to be average at best. As a matter of interest, we are the 8th richest club in the world, but our player spend doesn't and wages don't get into the top 20

 

[Raziel]

In general I would agree with that, although some of those players you have listed I believe to be average at best. As a matter of interest, we are the 8th richest club in the world, but our player spend doesn't and wages don't get into the top 20

Our player spend, both total and net is in the top 5 in the PL in the last 5 years, considering PL spend vs rest of the world, I'd assume that translates into top 8th at very worst.

Our wages to turnover may be low, but who do you think is being underpaid at Spurs? the sheer profile of most of our players, VDV, Udogie, Dragusin, Gray, Bergvall, Sarr, Kinsky, Spence, Wilson, i.e. all under 24, at their first big club and developing would mean lower salaries

Son, Maddison, Solanke, Romero all earn 150K/week or greater.

Honestly there was a period between the era of the Jan, Toby, Son, Dembele, etc buys until Paratici stepped in, in the between we had bought brick like Ndombele (who was on huge wages), GLC, Sess, etc. That period was brick at we are still paying for it, but the last 3-5 years has been well above average.

We could argue how great/average it is, I come back to it's not a bottom half squad, and we are getting bottom half results.