Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[braineclipse]

Firstly, you are entitled to your opinion of course. You say that if we were poorly managed we wouldn't have beaten City or Liverpool with a depleted side, I would therefore argue we wouldn't have lost against Everton, Ipswich, Wolves or several other lesser clubs we have lost against. We are now called doctor Tottenham, which means when we play poor performing sides we get to cheer them up when they beat us. This is quite funny, but yet true. Under Ange we have become a laughing stock.

I also refuse to believe that two games a week for a professional footballer in their prime should fatigue them. Mo Sala is the same age as Son, he plays every game and shows no signs of being tired. Ange loves to use this as an excuse to help cover his total incompetence as a coach. Although a side note, I find the man arrogant, very dislikeable, and when he is interviewed by the press I think he does himself and the club a disfavour. I have been attending Spurs since 1971 and can't remember a manager I think is more naive or incompetent than this one. Once more though, if you like him that's your choice.

The doctor Tottenham thing is not a new thing.

Well managed teams underperforming in games and losing to smaller teams is a thing v that happens with some regularity though. Injury struck teams beating better teams if poorly managed is more rare I think. At least we're having a disagreement of opinions now, I appreciate that rather than just claiming your opinions as truths.

If you refuse to believe that two games a week over time can cause fatigue for footballers that's fine. I think you're disagreeing with most of sports science people, most managers, most players who talk about this kind of stuff. There being individuals who don't suffer that fatigue much doesn't disprove that.

I don't think Ange has "loves using that as an excuse". I think he's complaines less about injuries than most managers in a similar situation.

 

[Muttley]

I think I am a pretty easy man to please. I seem to be more positive at present than 90% of the people on the forum. I thought we were undercooked for this seasons campaign, that isn't something I've decided recently with hindsight but something I said at the end of the transfer window and I think that has perhaps been proven with what has happened.

You can see the club had no intention of playing Austin and Whiteman by the way they immediately signed Kinsky when Forster got ill.
IMO Forster being on the payroll doesn't automatically make him suitable cover for Vicario, our system needs a keeper who is good with his feet, Forster is anything but. I'm really pleased with the Kinsky signing.

Regi is on our payroll simply because we couldn't shift him. He has proven himself to not be good enough over a few years. We need better.

Replacing Skipp and Hojbjerg with the two 18 year olds will be great for the future. Both players have massively higher upsides than the two they replaced. However, both also still have lots of developing to do and we are therefore weaker in the short term.

Everything we have done and are doing is for the long term from what I can see. That is great. It is why I am actually reasonably happy despite our league position. It seems to me that we are finally trying to do something significant instead of aiming for 6th and hoping for 4th. It seems however that many of those on here are not as patient as I am in this case.

Yeah, I get it.

I don't want to be a hypocrite myself. I've always lambasted the club for stockpiling players and making weak decisions. I felt it was strong of them to not get a LB when we had 2 others behind the first choice at the club. Ditto with Forster. Ange sanctioned the extension of that contract, and the new contract for Austin. We didn't have 1 keeper. We had 4. You make your choices in life.

Moving forward, I want this to be a squad strategy and policy. No more proliferation of the squad. The numbers set themselves within the parameters set by the governing bodies. If you can't rightsize, you don't get to add.

A Spurs manager's job is to fully utilise the squad he's been given between transfer windows. Accepting Reggie for what he is should have been part of that. Pretending you don't have that player just borders on plain stupid. It's cutting your nose off to spite your face. Ideally, you don't have to use your 25th guy. When injuries hit you do. You don't start bleating on about "11 fit players" when you have a prime footballer who has played for a tier 1 international team sitting there. Respect is lost at that point.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Our player spend, both total and net is in the top 5 in the PL in the last 5 years, considering PL spend vs rest of the world, I'd assume that translates into top 8th at very worst.

Our wages to turnover may be low, but who do you think is being underpaid at Spurs? the sheer profile of most of our players, VDV, Udogie, Dragusin, Gray, Bergvall, Sarr, Kinsky, Spence, Wilson, i.e. all under 24, at their first big club and developing would mean lower salaries

Son, Maddison, Solanke, Romero all earn 150K/week or greater.

Honestly there was a period between the era of the Jan, Toby, Son, Dembele, etc buys until Paratici stepped in, in the between we had bought brick like Ndombele (who was on huge wages), GLC, Sess, etc. That period was brick at we are still paying for it, but the last 3-5 years has been well above average.

We could argue how great/average it is, I come back to it's not a bottom half squad, and we are getting bottom half results.

What i really don't get as well is how Ange, who is:
1) late 50s
2) never managed in a competitive league
is getting a free pass from being the main problem.

Honestly it's like buying a 15 year old Toyota Prius and taking it out racing and blaming everything else for it not being fast....."it's the potholes, if I had a decent road, I'd be fast"....."its the faulty turbo. Once I've fixed it, watch me fly"......"it's the tyrea....once I've put some pilot sports on it...watch out"......and then you realise that if you put a new turbo in it, tuned the sh** out of it in fact, put the best tyres money could buy on it and put it on a newly tarmacked race track.....at the end of the day it's a 15 year old Prius....

The point is we hired a manager that had a plus 50% chance IMO of being out of his depth. And the fact we are having our worst season in 20 odd years is being put down (by many) to all these other things....

 

[Muttley]

What i really don't get as well is how Ange, who is:
1) late 50s
2) never managed in a competitive league
is getting a free pass from being the main problem.

Honestly it's like buying a 15 year old Toyota Prius and taking it out racing and blaming everything else for it not being fast....."it's the potholes, if I had a decent road, I'd be fast"....."its the faulty turbo. Once I've fixed it, watch me fly"......"it's the tyrea....once I've put some pilot sports on it...watch out"......and then you realise that if you put a new turbo in it, tuned the sh** out of it in fact, put the best tyres money could buy on it and put it on a newly tarmacked race track.....at the end of the day it's a 15 year old Prius....

The point is we hired a manager that had a plus 50% chance IMO of being out of his depth. And the fact we are having our worst season in 20 odd years is being put down (by many) to all these other things....

You mean ABA?

 

[Bullet]

I turned on the PSG vs MNC game.
Within 5 mins City went 2-0 up and were being lauded on comms, with Akanji making a mazy run down the right flank from centre back.

They're playing an aggressive 4141 formation, expecting the ancient Kovacic to hold down the entire midfield while the likes of Grealish DeBruyne Silva Foden swan around trying to help Haaland score.

5 mins later and it is 2-2.

Pep really is a charlatan. No way Kovacic can hold that together. Very naive. Why are the centre backs dribbling down the wing? They've gone to pieces here. They need a load more players I reckon. And a new manager.

 

[Bullet]

I turned on the PSG vs MNC game.
Within 5 mins City went 2-0 up and were being lauded on comms, with Akanji making a mazy run down the right flank from centre back.

They're playing an aggressive 4141 formation, expecting the ancient Kovacic to hold down the entire midfield while the likes of Grealish DeBruyne Silva Foden swan around trying to help Haaland score.

5 mins later and it is 2-2.

Pep really is a charlatan. No way Kovacic can hold that together. Very naive. Why are the centre backs dribbling down the wing? They've gone to pieces here. They need a load more players I reckon. And a new manager.

And then the inevitable happens, a cross to the back post and the full back has gone wandering. Free header for PSG and it is 3-2.
What a collapse. Charlatan Pep doing Catalan things.

 

[Bullet]

And then the inevitable happens, a cross to the back post and the full back has gone wandering. Free header for PSG and it is 3-2.
What a collapse. Charlatan Pep doing Catalan things.

Now it's 4-2 to PSG
City were 2 up and threw it all away and got smashed. Dear me. So naive this Pep guy.

 

[glasgowspur]

What i really don't get as well is how Ange, who is:
1) late 50s
2) never managed in a competitive league
is getting a free pass from being the main problem.

Honestly it's like buying a 15 year old Toyota Prius and taking it out racing and blaming everything else for it not being fast....."it's the potholes, if I had a decent road, I'd be fast"....."its the faulty turbo. Once I've fixed it, watch me fly"......"it's the tyrea....once I've put some pilot sports on it...watch out"......and then you realise that if you put a new turbo in it, tuned the sh** out of it in fact, put the best tyres money could buy on it and put it on a newly tarmacked race track.....at the end of the day it's a 15 year old Prius....

The point is we hired a manager that had a plus 50% chance IMO of being out of his depth. And the fact we are having our worst season in 20 odd years is being put down (by many) to all these other things....

Klopp 57 and pep 54, less than five years between them and ange.
His experience in the top league is of course brief, but his age is not an issue.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Klopp 57 and pep 54, less than five years between them and ange.
His experience in the top league is of course brief, but his age is not an issue.

The age is relevant when you're factoring in the inexperience. As in, i think it's acceptable to take a punt on a really exciting up and coming coach that isn't experienced. But someone towards the end of their career that hasn't managed in a top European league? That's a big punt.

 

[Bullet]

Confidence can be a big issue, for a team that isn't getting results

https://twitter.com/x/status/1882197263000432676

 

[demotw]

The age is relevant when you're factoring in the inexperience. As in, i think it's acceptable to take a punt on a really exciting up and coming coach that isn't experienced. But someone towards the end of their career that hasn't managed in a top European league? That's a big punt.

Except you have to factor where they started, Klopp and Pep being German and Spanish was more visible in a higher profile league then Ange started being Australian.

Heck Pep’s first role was Barcelona’s B team due to his player connection, Klopp was also a player was he not? Can’t compare tbh although your challenge of being 50+ and only just getting top tier league exposure is a fair one, wrong managers to compare against

 

[Muttley]

Except you have to factor where they started, Klopp and Pep being German and Spanish was more visible in a higher profile league then Ange started being Australian.

Heck Pep’s first role was Barcelona’s B team due to his player connection, Klopp was also a player was he not? Can’t compare tbh although your challenge of being 50+ and only just getting top tier league exposure is a fair one, wrong managers to compare against

I'm on the fence with this one. There are loads of players that were lost to the professional game because they were never spotted and nurtured, or even played the game itself. There's definitely a scenario where there are better referees than we have at the top of the pyramid. I'm guessing it would be the same with managers. There's unspotted gems everywhere in different tiers and countries.

I try to think about it differently. Because you have a product that does great in the UK, doesn't mean it will sell well in the EU, country by country. Then you want to take it to US or Asia and it's different again. There is inevitably a difference between the PL and all the other environments. It doesn't have to be about the PL being better, but it is definitely different.

Saying that I know that the PL player quality is better than the SPL player quality. If your tactics work against SPL quality players, doesn't mean they will work so well against PL ones. I think is gradually where Ange is having to adapt. Vice versa could be true as well. When you have all these elite level tactics that bamboozle the opposition, they might not work against a 4-5-1 Tamworth who just play their way. It can reduce you to look average as you've double bluffed yourself.

 

[veryoldspur]

Our player spend, both total and net is in the top 5 in the PL in the last 5 years, considering PL spend vs rest of the world, I'd assume that translates into top 8th at very worst.

Our wages to turnover may be low, but who do you think is being underpaid at Spurs? the sheer profile of most of our players, VDV, Udogie, Dragusin, Gray, Bergvall, Sarr, Kinsky, Spence, Wilson, i.e. all under 24, at their first big club and developing would mean lower salaries

Son, Maddison, Solanke, Romero all earn 150K/week or greater.

Honestly there was a period between the era of the Jan, Toby, Son, Dembele, etc buys until Paratici stepped in, in the between we had bought brick like Ndombele (who was on huge wages), GLC, Sess, etc. That period was brick at we are still paying for it, but the last 3-5 years has been well above average.

We could argue how great/average it is, I come back to it's not a bottom half squad, and we are getting bottom half results.

Like I said, in general I agree with you. We do have a decent squad, albeit not with a enough depth, and in my opinion good enough to challenge for a top 4 spot. The manager indeed is extremely poor, and it baffles me why any supporter is backing him based on the first ten games of least season. OK we have had a lot of injuries, but it's quite well documented many of these have been down to the way we play, the way we train, and poor rotation when he could have rotated. I would also add that even when we didn't have the injuries we were losing games we shouldn't have lost purely through naive tactics that he refuses to change. Ange is a dead man walking, but Levy is in a difficult position. He has to find a good manager to replace him, and I can't see many good managers wanting to sort out the mess we are in at present. Secondly he knows there will be a backlash from a minority of Angesexuals who actually think this man has done a good job. Finally, I would be surprised if he gets rid of him before the Liverpool game, although we all know we will get stuffed anyway.

 

[veryoldspur]

What i really don't get as well is how Ange, who is:
1) late 50s
2) never managed in a competitive league
is getting a free pass from being the main problem.

Honestly it's like buying a 15 year old Toyota Prius and taking it out racing and blaming everything else for it not being fast....."it's the potholes, if I had a decent road, I'd be fast"....."its the faulty turbo. Once I've fixed it, watch me fly"......"it's the tyrea....once I've put some pilot sports on it...watch out"......and then you realise that if you put a new turbo in it, tuned the sh** out of it in fact, put the best tyres money could buy on it and put it on a newly tarmacked race track.....at the end of the day it's a 15 year old Prius....

The point is we hired a manager that had a plus 50% chance IMO of being out of his depth. And the fact we are having our worst season in 20 odd years is being put down (by many) to all these other things....

Great post and great analogy

 

[braineclipse]

What i really don't get as well is how Ange, who is:
1) late 50s
2) never managed in a competitive league
is getting a free pass from being the main problem.

Honestly it's like buying a 15 year old Toyota Prius and taking it out racing and blaming everything else for it not being fast....."it's the potholes, if I had a decent road, I'd be fast"....."its the faulty turbo. Once I've fixed it, watch me fly"......"it's the tyrea....once I've put some pilot sports on it...watch out"......and then you realise that if you put a new turbo in it, tuned the sh** out of it in fact, put the best tyres money could buy on it and put it on a newly tarmacked race track.....at the end of the day it's a 15 year old Prius....

The point is we hired a manager that had a plus 50% chance IMO of being out of his depth. And the fact we are having our worst season in 20 odd years is being put down (by many) to all these other things....

For me he gets a pass now because I think most managers really struggle with this number of injuries over so long. We've seen it before. Howe last season with Saudi Sportswashing Machine. Pep this season with City. Particularly when also competing in Europe/4 competitions. Managers who are younger, PL proven and all that.

We've fallen further than we "should" expect from an injury crisis like this, but imo not by all that much.

I said at the start of December that this was going to get worse (last longer) before it gets better. I'm not surprised. I also won't be surprised if our form picks up significantly when we get players back from injuries. With or without Ange, though personally I hope it's with Ange.

 

[glasgowspur]

The age is relevant when you're factoring in the inexperience. As in, i think it's acceptable to take a punt on a really exciting up and coming coach that isn't experienced. But someone towards the end of their career that hasn't managed in a top European league? That's a big punt.

It's just the pedant in me, don't take it too seriously.

Your post said 1, age 2, experience in big league.
Two different issues, not a combination of the two.
But that's just me, and stuff like that annoy me like an itch I can't quite reach.

 

[billyiddo]

Age is relevant tbf - he's been managing longer than Mourinho & Conte (i think?) for example and they were both considered to have had the game move on from them while here - it's not like he's a young manager who is still honing and developing his craft and by his own words he very much comes across as having complete belief in his approach and there not likely to be much honing or development of it - his approach either works at this level or it fails.

 

[braineclipse]

At risk going through a much-discussed topic...what credentials should we be looking for? Proven PL managers clearly didn't work. I wanted Ange 2 years before he was appointed because he had the backbone to drive the cultural change Spurs needed, among other things.

My credentials would be PL proven, but at a non traditional top 4 or money club as opposed to the likes of Jose & Conte who were proven at clubs not facing the challenges we are. I think that covers both Redknapp & Poch our two best managers under Levy - unless I'm missing anyone obvious we haven't had a failure who fits that bill. There are things on top like style of play and by proven I mean taking a bottom/mid table club up to top half and knocking on the door of Europe.

How important is being PL proven really? Many of the most successful managers in the PL have not been. Going back to Ferguson (before it even was the PL), Wenger, Mourinho, Klopp, Guardiola.

Taking a team up the league, preferably towards the top. Fit with regards to style of play to the players already here and our overall aims for style of play. Ability and willingness to work with, develop and trust young players. Ability to instill a really good mentality. Don't be a massive bellend.

Klopp had done at Dortmund what he was asked to do at Liverpool. Guardiola had done at Bayern and Barca what he was asked to do at City. Mourinho had done at Porto what he was asked to do at Chelsea.

At a lesser level the string of managers at Brighton who have done well. Frank at Brentford. Iraola at Bournemouth.

Being good at what we need and for where we are is much more important than being PL proven imo.

Not to say experience at the highest level and in the PL isn't useful. Or experience winning things. Or experience juggling league and Europe. But for me those are not the most important things.

I still think Ange is a good fit.

 

[thfcsteff]

If those now taking the latest attack lines on Postecoglu are being honest, then the people most at fault would be the people who hired him!

Where's your vitriol for them?

 

[thfcsteff]

What i really don't get as well is how Ange, who is:
1) late 50s
2) never managed in a competitive league
is getting a free pass from being the main problem.

Honestly it's like buying a 15 year old Toyota Prius and taking it out racing and blaming everything else for it not being fast....."it's the potholes, if I had a decent road, I'd be fast"....."its the faulty turbo. Once I've fixed it, watch me fly"......"it's the tyrea....once I've put some pilot sports on it...watch out"......and then you realise that if you put a new turbo in it, tuned the sh** out of it in fact, put the best tyres money could buy on it and put it on a newly tarmacked race track.....at the end of the day it's a 15 year old Prius....

The point is we hired a manager that had a plus 50% chance IMO of being out of his depth. And the fact we are having our worst season in 20 odd years is being put down (by many) to all these other things....

So why aren't you spending time slagging off Munn, Lange and Levy? They hired him. If he is that terrible then they need to held accountable...