World Cup Group D - Uruguay, Costa Rica, England, Italy

[Baleforce]

Do Germany, Italy, Brazil et al have a conveyor belt of once in a century players?

no, they are generally better than us, their "average" players are far superior to our "average" players, sometimes we get one through who is so special they can negate the difference across a whole squad

 

[Robspur12]

no, they are generally better than us, their "average" players are far superior to our "average" players, sometimes we get one through who is so special they can negate the difference across a whole squad

Is that because they are genetically better at football? Or is it their players are nurtured better than our players? I am strongly of the opinion that we have a systemic failure in this country.

 

[Baleforce]

i think nurturing is the main thing, but not necessarily solely at the coaching level, english weather conditions and the long ingrained working class values in football have made their mark

 

[Yossarian]

Is that because they are genetically better at football? Or is it their players are nurtured better than our players? I am strongly of the opinion that we have a systemic failure in this country.

Mumorn has it I think.

Our youth coaching is primitive.

 

[Craig_J]

Is that because they are genetically better at football? Or is it their players are nurtured better than our players? I am strongly of the opinion that we have a systemic failure in this country.

We do and with every failure that results in tournaments or not qualifying you expect it might wake the FA up. They talk about these grand schemes some times but it is never as big as they make out.

 

[Mulletperm]

I blame this fella

 

[Baleforce]

We do and with every failure that results in tournaments or not qualifying you expect it might wake the FA up. They talk about these grand schemes some times but it is never as big as they make out.

the problem is that they are built on sand, underneath it all its still all about hard work and maintaining the old boys network, the english football team is the perfect embodiment of our (currently much vaulted) "english values"

 

[Robspur12]

We do and with every failure that results in tournaments or not qualifying you expect it might wake the FA up. They talk about these grand schemes some times but it is never as big as they make out.

And You know who having the last laugh tonight? ****ing Sepp Blatter. That Cnut Greg dyke going on before the World Cup about FIFA. I want to say STOP trying to divert attention away from you own failings and get your ****ing house in order.

 

[Neymar]

Results wise, your theory breaks down somewhat:

1986: QF
1990: SF
1994: DNQ
1998: last 16
2002: QF
2006: QF
2010: last 16
2014: Group

The Premier League launched in 1992?

The players produced post 1992 are far superior man for man. this is indisputable

To quote an old cliche though put 11 very good players together does not make a great team. Pl has created a silo mentality in my opinion, with club being greater than country. The riches of the pl means that we have created a "win at all costs now" mentality creating great athletes rather than developing gifted players or systems. There is very little commitment to the national side. Amongst those players you named who was truly gifted like a Hoddle or a Gascogne. Rooney perhaps at the start of his career but he seems to have gone the way of the others.

i agree that the development of the pl has meant that club football has taken on a greater significance at the elite level. and thus probably doesnt help the national team. but i disagree that its the pl that has encouraged the development of athletes rather than footballers. england has always created athletes/fighters rather than technical footballers. if you want iniestas instead of lampards, the football culture has to change at grass roots level. has very little to do with the pl imo.

hoddle and gascoigne did not really ever reach the levels that the likes of lampard, gerrard, beckham reached on an international scale. not even close. i doubt hoddle or gascoigne were ever in the top 10 midfield earners in world football. that shows that elite managers across the globe did not rate them like lampard, gerrard and beckham were rated.

even an england legend like bobby moore is probably massively overrated by us. i really wouldnt be surprised if hardly any football fans have heard of him beyond britain. the likes of lampard and beckham etc have reached the levels that the likes of garrincha, muller, beckenbauer, henry, platini, rossi etc have reached. ie. people across the globe will know of the names of lampard and beckham for many many decades.

 

[Neymar]

i think nurturing is the main thing, but not necessarily solely at the coaching level, english weather conditions and the long ingrained working class values in football have made their mark

hit the tickle my balls with a feather.

 

[Neymar]

i am actually quite optimistic about the future though. we are developing technically gifted players now. and if we can combine that with our athleticism, i could see us being genuine challengers even as soon as the next world cup

 

[Mumorn]

i am actually quite optimistic about the future though. we are developing technically gifted players now. and if we can combine that with our athleticism, i could see us being genuine challengers even as soon as the next world cup

depends how brave the manager of england is and whether players are playing at high level... will hughes, ravel morrison, ross barkley etc all supremely talented and out of the norm for England style,

 

[Neymar]

i not sure about naming specific players (as anything can happen in 4+ years time). but i just think in general we are creating a different type of footballer than before. instead of lampard, we now have someone like Wheelchair. and at a lower level, instead of gareth barry, we have the likes of cleverely. and our wingers are no longer long-ball specialists like beckham.

england will always produce top class players. because we have one of the biggest footballing cultures in the world. but now i am optimistic that we are creating the type of player that is more compatible with the global game.

 

[Robspur12]

The players produced post 1992 are far superior man for man. this is indisputable



i agree that the development of the pl has meant that club football has taken on a greater significance at the elite level. and thus probably doesnt help the national team. but i disagree that its the pl that has encouraged the development of athletes rather than footballers. england has always created athletes/fighters rather than technical footballers. if you want iniestas instead of lampards, the football culture has to change at grass roots level. has very little to do with the pl imo.

hoddle and gascoigne did not really ever reach the levels that the likes of lampard, gerrard, beckham reached on an international scale. not even close. i doubt hoddle or gascoigne were ever in the top 10 midfield earners in world football. that shows that elite managers across the globe did not rate them like lampard, gerrard and beckham were rated.

even an england legend like bobby moore is probably massively overrated by us. i really wouldnt be surprised if hardly any football fans have heard of him beyond britain. the likes of lampard and beckham etc have reached the levels that the likes of garrincha, muller, beckenbauer, henry, platini, rossi etc have reached. ie. people across the globe will know of the names of lampard and beckham for many many decades.[/quote/]

Using salaries as a comparison of ability given the ridiculous salaries of premier league players is a slightly spurious. The Pl is arguably the best and richest league in the world as well as the most well covered. That was not the case in the eras of Gascoigne's and Hoddle. I think you underestimate the kind of esteem the likes of Hoddle and Gascogne were held in abroad while at the same time overestimate that of Lampard and gerrard, neither of whom had top European clubs queuing up for their services, as good as they were for their clubs.

 

[Jordinho]

i not sure about naming specific players (as anything can happen in 4+ years time). but i just think in general we are creating a different type of footballer than before. instead of lampard, we now have someone like Wheelchair. and at a lower level, instead of gareth barry, we have the likes of cleverely. and our wingers are no longer long-ball specialists like beckham.

england will always produce top class players. because we have one of the biggest footballing cultures in the world. but now i am optimistic that we are creating the type of player that is more compatible with the global game.

Not sure that is a good thing.

 

[Robspur12]

The players produced post 1992 are far superior man for man. this is indisputable



i agree that the development of the pl has meant that club football has taken on a greater significance at the elite level. and thus probably doesnt help the national team. but i disagree that its the pl that has encouraged the development of athletes rather than footballers. england has always created athletes/fighters rather than technical footballers. if you want iniestas instead of lampards, the football culture has to change at grass roots level. has very little to do with the pl imo.

hoddle and gascoigne did not really ever reach the levels that the likes of lampard, gerrard, beckham reached on an international scale. not even close. i doubt hoddle or gascoigne were ever in the top 10 midfield earners in world football. that shows that elite managers across the globe did not rate them like lampard, gerrard and beckham were rated.

even an england legend like bobby moore is probably massively overrated by us. i really wouldnt be surprised if hardly any football fans have heard of him beyond britain. the likes of lampard and beckham etc have reached the levels that the likes of garrincha, muller, beckenbauer, henry, platini, rossi etc have reached. ie. people across the globe will know of the names of lampard and beckham for many many decades.

I don't know how old you are and if you were ever lucky enough like me to have seen Glenn Hoddle play. Honestly there are very few players in the world today let alone England who I can say are as gifted as he was certainly not gerrard, Lampard or Rooney. Not even beck ham IMO.

 

[Neymar]

Using salaries as a comparison of ability given the ridiculous salaries of premier league players is a slightly spurious. The Pl is arguably the best and richest league in the world. That was not the same in the eras of Gascoigne's and Hoddle. I think you underestimate the kind of esteem the likes of Hoddle and Gascogne were held in abroad while at the same time overestimate that of Lampard and gerrard, neither of whom had top European clubs queuing up for their services, as good as they were for their clubs.

using salary comparison is one of the best ways to compare players from different eras. it shows what managers (people who are paid to make decisions on footballing matters, as mourinho once told jamie redknapp lol) thought of players' abilities. the pl is the richest league in the world, and therefore there are less domestic players now as only the best domestic players can survive at this level. and those that have had careers in the pl, have fully deserved it. and no dobut the influx of foreigners has raised the level of the english players within the pl.

neither lampard or gerrard have had european clubs queing up for their services because there arent many clubs who can afford them or their salaries. but i remember both of them having links with the likes of real madrid and gerrard being linked with chelsea (a european powerhouse at the time). i doubt gascoigne or hoddle were ever linked with a global giant such as real madrid. they didnt even play for a top english side.

in addition, beckham, lampard and gerrard played in an era when england had multiple global superstars (thus, harder to get into). yet all three have managed the kind of stats that are comparable to what hoddle and gascoigne managed combined. Hoddle and Gascoigne appearances and goals combined: 100(18).
Lampard: 105(29), Gerrard: 112(21), Beckham: 115(17).

you just can't compare what these three have acheived in football with what hoddle and gascoigne have done.

 

[Neymar]

I don't know how old you are and if you were ever lucky enough like me to have seen Glenn Hoddle play. Honestly there are very few players in the world today let alone England who I can say are as gifted as he was certainly not gerrard, Lampard or Rooney. Not even beck ham IMO.

perhaps you are right. but managers of top european sides seem to disagree.

 

[Robspur12]

using salary comparison is one of the best ways to compare players from different eras. it shows what managers (people who are paid to make decisions on footballing matters, as mourinho once told jamie redknapp lol) thought of players' abilities. the pl is the richest league in the world, and therefore there are less domestic players now as only the best domestic players can survive at this level. and those that have had careers in the pl, have fully deserved it. and no dobut the influx of foreigners has raised the level of the english players within the pl.

neither lampard or gerrard have had european clubs queing up for their services because there arent many clubs who can afford them or their salaries. but i remember both of them having links with the likes of real madrid and gerrard being linked with chelsea (a european powerhouse at the time). i doubt gascoigne or hoddle were ever linked with a global giant such as real madrid. they didnt even play for a top english side.

in addition, beckham, lampard and gerrard played in an era when england had multiple global superstars (thus, harder to get into). yet all three have managed the kind of stats that are comparable to what hoddle and gascoigne managed combined. Hoddle and Gascoigne appearances and goals combined: 100(18).
Lampard: 105(29), Gerrard: 112(21), Beckham: 115(17).

you just can't compare what these three have acheived in football with what hoddle and gascoigne have done.

Far too many assumptions in that lot for me to go into at this time. I will respond when I don't have to sleep. Suffice to say I think your comparison is spurious.

 

[Robspur12]

perhaps you are right. but managers of top european sides seem to disagree.

Really which ones? Because I rather suspect at the time both Hoddle and gascoigne would have been pretty much the highest paid players at their clubs seeing as they were key players. Which European clubs outside the pl would have put gerrard and Lampard as their top wage earners?