World Cup Group D - Uruguay, Costa Rica, England, Italy

[Neymar]

Really which ones? Because I rather suspect at the time both Hoddle and gascoigne would have been pretty much the highest paid players at their clubs seeing as they were key players. Which European clubs outside the pl would have put gerrard and Lampard as their top wage earners?

the managers of elite european sides of the time didnt show an interest in hoddle/gascoigne. in contrast gerrard, lampard and beckham were all coveted by the best european managers. this is surely undeniable. if lampard or gerrard had made their moves abroad in their prime i highly suspect they would have been one of the top earners. Beckham and owen were.

and yeah, hoddle and gascoigne were probably the highest paid players at their clubs. so is gareth barry at everton though. and everton is a mid-table club too. and barry has around 50 caps too. if anything hoddle is closer to being gareth barry than beckham or gerrard.

 

[Neymar]

between lampard, gerrard, beckham, there are multiple league titles, european trophies, domestic cups. between gascogine and hoddle, theres fa cups. that says it all. gerrard, lampard and beckham are undoubtably global superstars. hoddle isnt even a national star

 

[djp82]

Mumorn has it I think.

Our youth coaching is primitive.

It used to be not anymore. Youth coaching has changed massively in the last 5-6 years IMO. My son plays youth football and it's a far cry from what passed as youth coaching when I played youth football. Think we will start to improve slowly it will happen but not over night .

 

[indianspur]

England are nothing without Andros T.

 

[Eriktheviking]

You look at other teams play and their mentality/way of playing is 'how can i get this ball to my mate in space over there, who is in a much better position to me and has a better chance of creating a dangerous situation'

Englands mentality/way of playing appears to be 'must run with ball into dead end, turn back then pass it 5 yards backwards to that guy who i should have given it to, first time, a minute ago.'

 

[Robspur12]

the managers of elite european sides of the time didnt show an interest in hoddle/Gascoigne. in contrast gerrard, lampard and beckham were all coveted by the best european managers. this is surely undeniable. if lampard or gerrard had made their moves abroad in their prime i highly suspect they would have been one of the top earners. Beckham and owen were.

and yeah, hoddle and gascoigne were probably the highest paid players at their clubs. so is gareth barry at everton though. and everton is a mid-table club too. and barry has around 50 caps too. if anything hoddle is closer to being gareth barry than beckham or gerrard.

Mate Gascoigne was sold to Lazio in 1991 for an English record 4.5 million so he was clearly coveted outside Europe. Glenn Hoddle was a loyal Spurs man who was bought by a certain Arsene Wenger for Monaco in in 1987. How do you know who else coveted them? Do you say that because they only played for Spurs? The eras were totally different with different ways of assessing players. The fact that it would appear players such as Beckham, Lampard and gerrard are more high profile and therefore more likely to be seen by foreign coaches does not make them better.

 

[Lost Mango]

Mate Gascoigne was sold to Lazio in 1991 for an English record 4.5 million so he was clearly coveted outside Europe. Glenn Hoddle was a loyal Spurs man who was bought by a certain Arsene Wenger for Monaco in in 1987. How do you know who else coveted them? Do you say that because they only played for Spurs? The eras were totally different with different ways of assessing players. The fact that it would appear players such as Beckham, Lampard and gerrard are more high profile and therefore more likely to be seen by foreign coaches does not make them better.

Totally agree with this.

the media coverage and agent spouting was different as well so half the stories we get today would never see the light of day. The money involved is of a totally different magnitude - how much of Beckham's moves were down to income streams he could generate vs ability?

To compare Hoddle to Barry is just unbelievable and either shows your age or the weakness of your comparison system.
Tom Ince was being coveted by Inter allegedly - does that make him a better player than Hoddle and Gascoigne?

 

[camspur]

the managers of elite european sides of the time didnt show an interest in hoddle/gascoigne. in contrast gerrard, lampard and beckham were all coveted by the best european managers. this is surely undeniable. if lampard or gerrard had made their moves abroad in their prime i highly suspect they would have been one of the top earners. Beckham and owen were.

and yeah, hoddle and gascoigne were probably the highest paid players at their clubs. so is gareth barry at everton though. and everton is a mid-table club too. and barry has around 50 caps too. if anything hoddle is closer to being gareth barry than beckham or gerrard.

Hoddle and Gascoigne played in a different era when players honoured contracts, were semi-loyal to their club and teams were limited to the number of foreign players they could have now it's anything goesfor players and teams can have as many foreign mercenaries as they like as long as the entire squad has 8 nationals in it.

 

[DHSF]

Im actually unsure why it would be considered a minor miracle if England go through. It is highly plausible that Italy (if they dont decide to tactically get England out by colluding with Uruguay) could win their next two games whilst England beat Costa Rica. I mean its not an out there permutation, ive seen more complex ones before.

Maybe im optimistic but ****ing beats the pessimism.

There is a fundamental flaw within the system and that i ssomething that needs to be sorted out but players like Sterling and Barkley are not bad players - I think a lot of the posts and remarks are over the top. Reading though the posts you would have thought England had just got hammered by both Italy and Uruguay. The fact of the matter is there was one goal in it on both ocassions we definitely dominated Uruguay (apart from the five second half minutes) and they just had one long punt to score - it highlights the defensive issues but it dosnt prove that England were ****e. It was uninspiring granted but not ****e. England should have won that game.

 

[camspur]

And if we're looking for spacegoats I blame the Championship and lower teams, every time they produce a good prospect they bung a £10m price tag on him and the EPL team buys a Croatian/Bulgarian/Ghanain/insert nationality here international player for £8m getting themselves the finished article for less.

 

[Danners9]

1. England look so poor against teams with a gameplan. You can't just chase and charge around the field. Cramped up vs Italy, caught out of position vs Uruguay. Amateur tactics.

2. England played quite well against Italy, so Roy changes it?! why?!

3. Gerrard's brain farts are costly. Euro 2004 back pass vs France, WC 2006 missed penalty, for Liverpool vs Chelsea.

4. The younger players have a real chance of forming a good team. They need a defined style and a clear strategy, even if it means losing a few games.

 

[El Guepardo]

Why didn't the referee have the balls to send off Godin?

 

[Baleforce]

Im actually unsure why it would be considered a minor miracle if England go through. It is highly plausible that Italy (if they dont decide to tactically get England out by colluding with Uruguay) could win their next two games whilst England beat Costa Rica. I mean its not an out there permutation, ive seen more complex ones before.

Maybe im optimistic but ****ing beats the pessimism.

There is a fundamental flaw within the system and that i ssomething that needs to be sorted out but players like Sterling and Barkley are not bad players - I think a lot of the posts and remarks are over the top. Reading though the posts you would have thought England had just got hammered by both Italy and Uruguay. The fact of the matter is there was one goal in it on both ocassions we definitely dominated Uruguay (apart from the five second half minutes) and they just had one long punt to score - it highlights the defensive issues but it dosnt prove that England were ****e. It was uninspiring granted but not ****e. England should have won that game.

agree on your first point, Italy are a class above both Uruguay and Costa Rica, they should win both without having to try to hard

on your second point, yes the margin was solely one goal, but its the mentality, whenever england are in a situation like that someone (normally gerrard) cracks and we give up a soft goal, we are mentally weak

 

[braineclipse]

A lot of talk about cheating and diving before the game, seems to have died down a bit for whatever reason

To be less inflammatory, I agree that the youth work in England doesn't seem up to scratch. No point blaming the young generation or Play Stations or whatever, there's not that much of a difference in Germany for example and England seem perfectly capable of producing great athletes in other sports - as highlighted at the Olympics.

As usual it seems that the blame is aimed at the manager, a lack of heart or desire or whatever instead of doing what Germany did a decade or so ago.

 

[Seedy Ron]

agree on your first point, Italy are a class above both Uruguay and Costa Rica, they should win both without having to try to hard

on your second point, yes the margin was solely one goal, but its the mentality, whenever england are in a situation like that someone (normally gerrard) cracks and we give up a soft goal, we are mentally weak

Yup, Italy winning twice isn't beyond the realms, I'll take them winning this afternoon for a start just to keep us alive. We'd probably find a way to balls up Costa Rica though (sorry DHSF, not feeling very positive about Ingerland today).

Hopefully with Suarez's brace we'll see Zinedine start the tapping up soon, every cloud...

 

[camspur]

A lot of talk about cheating and diving before the game, seems to have died down a bit for whatever reason

To be less inflammatory, I agree that the youth work in England doesn't seem up to scratch. No point blaming the young generation or Play Stations or whatever, there's not that much of a difference in Germany for example and England seem perfectly capable of producing great athletes in other sports - as highlighted at the Olympics.

As usual it seems that the blame is aimed at the manager, a lack of heart or desire or whatever instead of doing what Germany did a decade or so ago.

Have to disagree about the "not much difference in Germany" point. Youth sport is much more organised and readily available in Germany than over here and youngsters don't spend as much time on their PC / PlayStation / Xbox as they do over here..

 

[DHSF]

agree on your first point, Italy are a class above both Uruguay and Costa Rica, they should win both without having to try to hard

on your second point, yes the margin was solely one goal, but its the mentality, whenever england are in a situation like that someone (normally gerrard) cracks and we give up a soft goal, we are mentally weak

The second point as we finally agree on something with the first, I dont really agree. I dont think Gerrard cracked for example, I just think he simply didnt win a header or rather he won it but inadvertently flicked it on but if anything I think the defence was in the wrong here if we want to play the blame game.

Mentally weak I tend to agree with (again) but that cant be trained through youth development etc, thats mainly to do with the human being themselves who are unable to handle pressure.

In summary I think all it needed was some tweaking and finishing off the opportunities that, dare I say it, Rooney should have finished (against Italy and Uruguay) Its such small margins but that small margin is the biggest to fill.

 

[DHSF]

Yup, Italy winning twice isn't beyond the realms, I'll take them winning this afternoon for a start just to keep us alive. We'd probably find a way to balls up Costa Rica though (sorry DHSF, not feeling very positive about Ingerland today).

Hopefully with Suarez's brace we'll see Zinedine start the tapping up soon, every cloud...

Mate we could balls it up but I think if Italy win today then England will be well up for the Costa Rica game the thing is I really do think Italy are ****s and would just doss about against Uruguay and play out a draw although Uruguay could be at risk of losing out if they take that route and dont think Italy would want to finish second in the group - so im seriously not seeing it as beyond the realms of possibility. Today is vital though.

 

[Neymar]

Mate Gascoigne was sold to Lazio in 1991 for an English record 4.5 million so he was clearly coveted outside Europe. Glenn Hoddle was a loyal Spurs man who was bought by a certain Arsene Wenger for Monaco in in 1987. How do you know who else coveted them? Do you say that because they only played for Spurs? The eras were totally different with different ways of assessing players. The fact that it would appear players such as Beckham, Lampard and gerrard are more high profile and therefore more likely to be seen by foreign coaches does not make them better.

i accept that it was different eras. but neither lazio or monaco were european powerhouses. they were big teams, but not a real madrid. and its not just foreign coaches who didnt neccessarily value them as much as the beckhams and lampards. even domestically, hoddle and gascoigne only had around 50 caps each compared to the 100+ of the likes of lampard, gerrard and beckham. with gascoigne and hoddle, it just seems that its the fans who rate them, and not managers (domestic or foreign), who are ultimately paid for their football expertise.

 

[Neymar]

Totally agree with this.
To compare Hoddle to Barry is just unbelievable and either shows your age or the weakness of your comparison system.
Tom Ince was being coveted by Inter allegedly - does that make him a better player than Hoddle and Gascoigne?

Hoddle is probably massively overrated by us fans because his style of play was technical. and these players are very easy on the eye. its like how some players are "highlights players". hoddle was probably one of these. barry on the other hand is more of a grafter than hoddle and has other strengths that are not as apparant to fans. the fact of the matter is, they both played for slightly above average top division sides for the most of their careers. and have amassed around 50 caps for england. and neither were thought of as indispensible for their countries by managers. apart from the style of play, i think the careers of these two players are much more comparable than say hoddle and beckham.

would you prefer if hoddle was compared to joe cole?