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Ange in or out?

Ange in or out?

  • In

    Votes: 77 45.3%
  • Out

    Votes: 93 54.7%

  • Total voters
    170
To see how successful he has been here where would he go after us? It certainly isn’t to a team better than us.

He may get a smaller job in Spain or France but no one is going to touch him.

He will be successful in a league where every mistake isn't punished.

I actually think it's that simple, his system works and is entertaining up to a certain ceiling. If our opposition was 25% -50% less clinical on punishing our mistakes, we would be ok. The PL is a step too far for the model.
 
To see how successful he has been here where would he go after us? It certainly isn’t to a team better than us.

He may get a smaller job in Spain or France but no one is going to touch him.
The main thing that I see against him is his age and there are approx 13 clubs financially bigger than Spurs. Those 13 clubs mostly go after the elite. Is Ange elite no? That doesnt mean he is not a good manager.
 
It looks like exactly the right time to me, for the reasons outlined by Raziel - we have a ready-made young core of a rebuilt squad that can quite easily adapt to 4-2-3-1. I am sure Poch would be one of the best if not the best candidate to get the most out of Gray and Bergvall together in midfield, and we know he has the courage to play the young players (like Ange). The overlapping potential of Spence and Udogie is massive, on a par with Walker and Rose I would argue. Being Argentinian, he might be able to convince Romero to stay (and make him into our permanent captain), he might be sufficiently courageous to play Moore more often - I think he is our only genuinely creative player in the long run in our catalogue of Ange-type wingers - and with Lange/Munn (and Paratici?) around he would not have to identify and sign players on his own, so we should avoid a repeat of the Lo Celso/N'Dombele summer. No guarantees, of course, but it seems like the perfect moment to me, esp. if we wait until the summer and he has a full pre-season to get to know the players.

Why do you think that now, specifically, is not the right time? Do we simply need more water under the bridge because the wound has not yet fully healed?

I think there are still some issues within the upper management which would need serious clarification/trust. He has always maintained a decent relationship with Levy FWIW. Further, and I'll be blunt, I don't trust our supporters right now to give him the time he might need. I can see the same waves of Bol-locks rolling hard the moment it starts to look less than amazing. In short - we might not deserve him yet!
 
I think there are still some issues within the upper management which would need serious clarification/trust. He has always maintained a decent relationship with Levy FWIW. Further, and I'll be blunt, I don't trust our supporters right now to give him the time he might need. I can see the same waves of Bol-locks rolling hard the moment it starts to look less than amazing. In short - we might not deserve him yet!

I don't know, i think many of the fanbase have shown quite a lot of patience recently...
 
I think there are still some issues within the upper management which would need serious clarification/trust. He has always maintained a decent relationship with Levy FWIW. Further, and I'll be blunt, I don't trust our supporters right now to give him the time he might need. I can see the same waves of Bol-locks rolling hard the moment it starts to look less than amazing. In short - we might not deserve him yet!

Think it's been a lot longer than a moment under the current manager. It's only really ramped up in the last couple of weeks. The AZ first leg followed by the Bournemouth game with a manager who is a potential replacement, with a similar time period spent in the job with worse resources seems to have been a watershed moment for a lot of people.
 
. Further, and I'll be blunt, I don't trust our supporters right now to give him the time he might need. I can see the same waves of Bol-locks rolling hard the moment it starts to look less than amazing. In short - we might not deserve him yet!
I can see (and agree) that you wouldn't want Poch to suffer that kind of film flam BUT I think there is no other path to walk these days....such is life
 
I think there are still some issues within the upper management which would need serious clarification/trust. He has always maintained a decent relationship with Levy FWIW. Further, and I'll be blunt, I don't trust our supporters right now to give him the time he might need. I can see the same waves of Bol-locks rolling hard the moment it starts to look less than amazing. In short - we might not deserve him yet!

Yeah, that last bit almost reads like a little (lol, actually big) swipe at some fellow Spurs fans. I genuinely believe that Spurs fans have been very patient since about 2017 when we plateau'd. It has been false dawns since then on the pitch but not as a club. I've always felt like the big churn started about 2 years before Ange joined and he's then had those 2 years of significant investment, plus his own 2 years. Shouldn't we be through the forming, storming, norming phases and be in the performing one now?

Putting Ange to one side, I'm wondering what Levy is thinking. It's coming up to 6 years next month since the stadium opened and it's been 4 years since this squad started developing. I hope he believes in the new structure he built, even with a couple more personnel changes.

Surely now has to be the right time for us to try another manager. We can't surely be saying that we don't deserve an elite manager yet. Of course we do. The massive majority fans have been incredible in the last half a decade and I think the direction of travel by the club has been good and this is a blip. If it was a share on the stock market, most would load on at this low point. I would.

As for Ange, I always love the way you (and the other podcasters) have seen the positives in him. You have identified the right dispensations for his results as manager. Right now, I feel like he's almost like one of those decisions at work that we want the spreadsheet to answer for us. The data doesn't tell us the answer yet as it's not a complete data set. We want to continue to build more and more data as we want to do the right thing by him. Then a leader comes along and turns all that grey space into black and white in an instant. That leader just counts the amount of rows and knows that if we're analysing that much data then the answer is already staring us in the face. (A little insight into how my mind works)

As for Poch, I need more time to process whether he is the right fit. I struggle with objectivity on it as 90% of the picture in my head is the Spurs Poch from the last decade. He's had half a decade of personal development in other roles since and has potentially moved up another level. Some of my concerns may not even be relevant now. I loved the guy anyway, but always had some reservations about how far he could take us. They may actually be moot by now.

Perhaps we can negotiate a job swap with the US soccer team :cool:
 
I think there are still some issues within the upper management which would need serious clarification/trust. He has always maintained a decent relationship with Levy FWIW. Further, and I'll be blunt, I don't trust our supporters right now to give him the time he might need. I can see the same waves of Bol-locks rolling hard the moment it starts to look less than amazing. In short - we might not deserve him yet!
Sure, I will agree with you on both counts, even though much of the upper management issues are hearsay to me. But ... there is never a perfect moment. Waiting until all the stars are aligned is not a strategy we should be pursuing, certainly not at this club.

Let's take a look at what could work now - listening to you on the pod makes me believe that you should be up for this. The major factor right now for me would be how easily we could adapt the heart of our team to Poch's favoured 4-2-3-1. Vicario; Spence, Romero, VDV, and Udogie would make for an excellent back four, with Kinsky, Danso, Porro, and Vuskovic as back-ups. Gray and Bergvall would be so complementary in a midfield two, could really gel if they play together regularly, and Gray is probably just as flexible tactically as Dier was in his early years. Sarr would be a natural back-up, given his huge potential. So that's six players and change, and the core of a Poch team right there, with, say, two or three years to polish and develop them into a real unit. We will have plenty of practicing hours at Hotspur Way anyway - another plus for a Poch return - with our chances of being in Europe next season fairly slim (even if we reach the final, I cannot see us beating Bilbao at their own ground). Those stars were never aligned before in the same way, post-Conte or post-Mourinho, when a Poch return would have been premature anyway. Now they might be.

Incidentally, this also confirms for me how much of the rebuild is still underway. I cannot see any of our current players in attack reach the same level as Kane, Alli, Son, and Eriksen - with the exception of Moore, and maybe Deki. Odobert has scored his first two goals against AZ, but he might turn into the next Ruel Fox for all we know. Solanke is a player we can so far only admire, but in a top team, he is an option for the bench at best.
 
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Answers within the post my friend (great discussion BTW)...


I want a second apology in blood...

You won't even get it in digital ink!!!! :p


I actually don't really dislike Ange. He's annoyed me lately by confronting fans and biting at stupid stuff in press conferences but, despite my misgivings about his tactics from early on, I've always liked him, admired his principles and wanted him to succeed as I think if a manager can succeed playing balls-out attacking football, it'd be good for the game.

Gotcha.

All I'm seeing is excuses above Steff. How has the "mess our academy was in" negatively impacted Ange any more than Jose, Nuno or Conte? He has some really good players coming through in Scarlett, Dorrington, Donley, Moore and so on. His immediate predecessors didn't really have that.

No mate, not excuses, facts.
The job description he came into included dealing with that situation. Mourinho and Conte were brought in for short-term deliveries and given no responsibilities to deal with any of that structure. Nuno? I think he was woefully unlucky and left hanging by everyone. Scarlett, meanwhile, has been around since Jose days, Dorrington has been injured until recently and is not a great fit pace-wise for the club right now, Donely has been excellently managed as seen with the Orient loan, Moore was thrown in too quickly for proper development but has been managed well given the emergencies. In fact, the way we've developed Donely and Moore in particular will benefit the next incoming hugely.



If I take when Harry came in - the whole football structure was ripped up and he came in and managed through it with a very good first season and qualified for CL in the second season. He had a lot of brick in the squad initially but he dealt with it without dragging us down. You could argue Martin Jol did the same. The player turnover in his early reign was huge. When Poch came in, he had to deal with senior players phoning it in and he had to gamble on unproven youth. When Jose came in, he had a massive injury crisis too. He dealt with it much better than Ange. When Conte came in, he inherited a club in a lot of turmoil, he had to get Kane re-engaged and he got us top 4. All these guys were dealt bricky hands to an extent and they all dealt with it much, much better than Ange.

No mate, I disagree. He came into a side which had lost 52 goals in Berbatov and Keane, and was famously in the relegation zone. Harry was a desperate punt. Kelmsey told Levy to get Redknapp because he could get us out of it. He did. He made safe, short-term purchases. He got a few duds too. He nearly fudged Bale off. He was fun. But to say the football structure was ripped up when he came in? Only in the sense that Harry operates old-school and any of Levy's DOF stuff got parked because of it.

Jol certainly kick-started a lot for us. Arnesen, had he stuck around, would've been an excellent foil for Jol. He managed to implement some great younger players with experienced teachers on-field (Naybet, Davids...BTW, that might be one issue with the current system, that we didn't strategise enough to have one or two of those i.e. pay big for a Kimmich to teach teach teach!)...Poch speaks for himself - generational and we were blessed...Jose lied to get the gig (told Levy no rebuild was necessary as he could win with what was there)...Conte did superbly to get that CL spot, my big issue with him has always been that I felt he wouold walk if he felt unsupported, instead he stuck around despite feeling that and proceeded to c -unt out the entire club!




I know what Ange was referring to in his analogy but I'm using his words to articulate my opinion on him. When you've been mediocre to poor for 18 months, there are no excuses. Not injuries, not internal politics, not club structures. At some point, you have to accept that you're responsible. You look at Sunday - as MOTD2 highlighted, that was down to a poorly coached team and unprofessionalism. Not doing the basics.

For me it is not black and white across the time. Of course he has to accept responsibility - he's the manager - and there are reasons. You call them excuses.



I'd have loved for Ange to succeed, I really would. I'd have been happy to hold my hands up and say I got him wrong and watch him say "told you I win things in my second year maties". But it's not going to happen. It's reached the point of untenable.

And I think if you've paid close attention to what I've been saying in recent weeks, I agree, it has become untenable. Where we disagree is why.

BTW, why is everyone so hung up on this 'second year' rubbish? He was asked a question. He replied. Until post-Frankfurt or a knock-out in the Europa, it remains a factual truth.



For anyone still defending Ange, I'd ask this. In the circumstances he's had to manage through, what would he have had to do to be sacked or would you have given him a pass because of the injuries no matter what? If it's not a free pass, I don't know how anyone can still be in his corner.

Again, I wish you'd back away from the 'how anyone can still be in his corner' rhetoric. I am in his corner as a human being who has been doing the very best he can with a deck which has been incredibly lop-sided for long periods of his tenure. Does it feel like he's at the end of his road with us? Put it this way, the Spurs satnav suggests that is exactly the case. But because I refuse (steadfastly in fact) to get into some of the IMO OTT rhetoric regarding him as a manager, does that mean I am 'in his corner'? Come on.

I'll add this as a closer. I watched the clips of our 'supporters' at Fulham, berating Ange and going off at Tel. I have n o time for it whatsoever, and frankly, given the bollox Postecoglu has been facing all season, I found hios reaction absolutely acceptable and (if anything) mellow. This perpetual idea that just because they're highly paid professionals they should accept being abused in public situations is IMO wrong. As much as I dislike Mourinho, I would never ever have abused him in person (all employees of ours get my benefit of doubt). My POV on abusing players in person has been noted before and has not changed.
 
Yeah, that last bit almost reads like a little (lol, actually big) swipe at some fellow Spurs fans. I genuinely believe that Spurs fans have been very patient since about 2017 when we plateau'd.

It is. Defiantly so.
You think we plateau'd in 2017? Wow, I don't know where to go with that one...


It has been false dawns since then on the pitch but not as a club. I've always felt like the big churn started about 2 years before Ange joined and he's then had those 2 years of significant investment, plus his own 2 years. Shouldn't we be through the forming, storming, norming phases and be in the performing one now?

I cannot direct your opinion/perspective. I outlined my view of what he came into in another post.


Putting Ange to one side, I'm wondering what Levy is thinking. It's coming up to 6 years next month since the stadium opened and it's been 4 years since this squad started developing. I hope he believes in the new structure he built, even with a couple more personnel changes.

I agree with you, and signs are that he does whioch is good.



Surely now has to be the right time for us to try another manager. We can't surely be saying that we don't deserve an elite manager yet. Of course we do. The massive majority fans have been incredible in the last half a decade and I think the direction of travel by the club has been good and this is a blip. If it was a share on the stock market, most would load on at this low point. I would.

We've had several 'elite managers', the question is in definition. Elite managers want instant elite players, y'know, 80 mil plus on 300k a week. Our set-up right now is to develop players who will become that. We have to hope that the next manager catches lightning in a bottle like Poch did with this group and some additions.



As for Ange, I always love the way you (and the other podcasters) have seen the positives in him. You have identified the right dispensations for his results as manager. Right now, I feel like he's almost like one of those decisions at work that we want the spreadsheet to answer for us. The data doesn't tell us the answer yet as it's not a complete data set. We want to continue to build more and more data as we want to do the right thing by him. Then a leader comes along and turns all that grey space into black and white in an instant. That leader just counts the amount of rows and knows that if we're analysing that much data then the answer is already staring us in the face. (A little insight into how my mind works)

I think this is a really fair and interesting perspective for sure.


As for Poch, I need more time to process whether he is the right fit. I struggle with objectivity on it as 90% of the picture in my head is the Spurs Poch from the last decade. He's had half a decade of personal development in other roles since and has potentially moved up another level. Some of my concerns may not even be relevant now. I loved the guy anyway, but always had some reservations about how far he could take us. They may actually be moot by now.

Perhaps we can negotiate a job swap with the US soccer team :cool:

I loved him. I love him. I don't see him leaving the USMNT until 2026.

As always, great discussion.
 
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