Ange in or out?

[billyiddo]

The club had virtually no scouts or transfer department during the latter years of Poch and right through Jose's time - I'm not fan of Jose but you can't really blame either for our transfer activity during that era. If both had the benefit of the money and transfer setup we currently have in place then things may have worked out differently for both.

 

[thfcsteff]

Sure, I will agree with you on both counts, even though much of the upper management issues are hearsay to me. But ... there is never a perfect moment. Waiting until all the stars are aligned is not a strategy we should be pursuing, certainly not at this club.

Let's take a look at what could work now - listening to you on the pod makes me believe that you should be up for this. The major factor right now for me would be how easily we could adapt the heart of our team to Poch's favoured 4-2-3-1. Vicario; Spence, Romero, VDV, and Udogie would make for an excellent back four, with Kinsky, Danso, Porro, and Vuskovic as back-ups. Gray and Bergvall would be so complementary in a midfield two, could really gel if they play together regularly, and Gray is probably just as flexible tactically as Dier was in his early years. Sarr would be a natural back-up, given his huge potential. So that's six players and change, and the core of a Poch team right there, with, say, two or three years to polish and develop them into a real unit. We will have plenty of practicing hours at Hotspur Way anyway - another plus for a Poch return - with our chances of being in Europe next season fairly slim (even if we reach the final, I cannot see us beating Bilbao at their own ground). Those stars were never aligned before in the same way, post-Conte or post-Mourinho, when a Poch return would have been premature anyway. Now they might be.

Incidentally, this also confirms for me how much of the rebuild is still underway. I cannot see any of our current players in attack reach the same level as Kane, Alli, Son, and Eriksen - with the exception of Moore, and maybe Deki. Odobert has scored his first two goals against AZ, but he might turn into the next Ruel Fox for all we know. Solanke is a player we can so far only admire, but in a top team, he is an option for the bench at best.

i mean...truth be told, IF he came back I'd be ecstatic!!!!!!!!!!!!! There. I said it!!

 

[thfcsteff]

There was no difference between how he played at the latter end of the Poch era and how he played for Jose. Jose didn't break him, he was already broken.

...so the man who was instrumental in some vital moments during the 2019 CL run (remember Amsterdam) played the same with Jose/ Look, I get it. You and I disagree on Jose. However, I find it alarming you refuse to see how Mourinho broke the guy (with the help of his Amazon take-over)...anyway...

 

[thfcsteff]

The club had virtually no scouts or transfer department during the latter years of Poch and right through Jose's time - I'm not fan of Jose but you can't really blame either for our transfer activity during that era. If both had the benefit of the money and transfer setup we currently have in place then things may have worked out differently for both.

I will give Mourinho the covid era, obviously not ideal and could well have been different without it (albeit he might've stunk the place out faster with fans around every week) but why does everybody conveniently ignore the fact that he intimated quite clearly to Levy that he could win with 'that same squad'?

 

[Mikey10]

Genuinely in awe of how so many of you remember the ins and outs of stuff that happened 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago. It amazes me, as a man who struggles to remember what he had for breakfast.

Chapeau!

 

[Bishop]

...so the man who was instrumental in some vital moments during the 2019 CL run (remember Amsterdam) played the same with Jose/ Look, I get it. You and I disagree on Jose. However, I find it alarming youb refuse to see how Mourinho broke the guy (with the help of his Amazon take-over)...anyway...

We don't disagree on Jose I thought he was a terrible choice for Spurs I said so at the time and was proven right. Despite this I'm not going to change the reality, Dele was poor way before Jose came in. I know this because I was one of those people who was constantly pointing it out to his supporters like yourself who were refusing to see the truth. So I can't accept this revisionist history whereby all was well with Dele until Jose came along. His form was already in the dumps and had been for a long time long before Jose. I even remember some of the rhetoric when Jose came in was that if anybody could restore Dele Jose would be the man due to the Lampard similarities. So I wasn't even the only person who was aware Dele had turned frankly to crap.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Frankfurt have indeed as their shirt sponsors.

Someone should tell Ange.

 

[Baleforce]

Dele got more goals and assists in the league in Jose's season than he had in the season before.

All of the goals came after the manager change.

 

[El Dante]

p.s. ANY insinuations that I am biased against Jose Mourinho, and have thus allowed that bias to affect any rational thought around his time with us, will not be denied and could possibly be welcomed as perverse badges of honour!!!!!!!

I never wanted Mourinho. Thought as an interim at most. Thought he was poor at United and was past his best days. Was happy when he went even if of course we did have some positive results on the way. Wanted Naglesmann to come in.

 

[Baleforce]

I never wanted Mourinho. Thought as an interim at most. Thought he was poor at United and was past his best days. Was happy when he went even if of course we did have some positive results on the way. Wanted Naglesmann to come in.

and like Poch, he's dropped out of the game too

 

[El Dante]

We don't disagree on Jose I thought he was a terrible choice for Spurs I said so at the time and was proven right. Despite this I'm not going to change the reality, Dele was poor way before Jose came in. I know this because I was one of those people who was constantly pointing it out to his supporters like yourself who were refusing to see the truth. So I can't accept this revisionist history whereby all was well with Dele until Jose came along. His form was already in the dumps and had been for a long time long before Jose. I even remember some of the rhetoric when Jose came in was that if anybody could restore Dele Jose would be the man due to the Lampard similarities. So I wasn't even the only person who was aware Dele had turned frankly to crap.

With Dele, I remember he was sent off in a European match and that seemed to be the start of the end. It was like he lost his way. It’s such a shame as he was huge for us during his best days. I hope he can find some form at Como but unfortunately his sending off at the weekend won’t have helped.

 

[Baleforce]

With Dele, I remember he was sent off in a European match and that seemed to be the start of the end. It was like he lost his way. It’s such a shame as he was huge for us during his best days. I hope he can find some form at Como but unfortunately his sending off at the weekend won’t have helped.

there was a time, when I would have put big money on Alli being the one from that squad to have hit the highest level

sadly, none of them ever really made it

 

[thfcsteff]

We don't disagree on Jose I thought he was a terrible choice for Spurs I said so at the time and was proven right. Despite this I'm not going to change the reality, Dele was poor way before Jose came in. I know this because I was one of those people who was constantly pointing it out to his supporters like yourself who were refusing to see the truth. So I can't accept this revisionist history whereby all was well with Dele until Jose came along. His form was already in the dumps and had been for a long time long before Jose. I even remember some of the rhetoric when Jose came in was that if anybody could restore Dele Jose would be the man due to the Lampard similarities. So I wasn't even the only person who was aware Dele had turned frankly to crap.

...do you not accept that Jose did nothing to help him, and in fact, humiliated him? Or is that revisionism in your eyes?

 

[glorygloryeze]

...do you not accept that Jose did nothing to help him, and in fact, humiliated him? Or is that revisionism in your eyes?

Tbf, Jose brought out some of the best in Dele in his first couple of months, but once things started to go a bit pear-shaped for Jose at Spurs as usual he chose one or two players as s.capegoats to perhaps use as examples for others (and continue his binary "with me or against" me schtik).

He in the end did humiliate him, but remember he also motivated him to the nth degree in those first 2/3 months to perform much better then he had for almost a year. Remember his skills in the first game away at West Ham, some classy goals vs Bournemouth, Man Utd, Brighton...it would be wrong to say we didn't see a big uptick at the start of Jose's stint with us.
It really went pear-shaped from just before lockdown when we had all those injuries up front and Jose couldn't use Alli as a target man or speed merchant

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

This is a really balanced take IMO, and it does add weight to the thought that Ange was chosen to do the dirty work and someone else will come in and enjoy a structure in place.

I think you're giving far too much credit/benefit of tje doubt there in implying deliberately or unintentionally that there was some kind of strategy in the Ange appointment over and above the club trying to be "clever" and try to search for some kind of cheat code of getting success without investing the sums that the clubs that are regularly successful do invest.

 

[thfcsteff]

Tbf, Jose brought out some of the best in Dele in his first couple of months, but once things started to go a bit pear-shaped for Jose at Spurs as usual he chose one or two players as s.capegoats to perhaps use as examples for others (and continue his binary "with me or against" me schtik).

He in the end did humiliate him, but remember he also motivated him to the nth degree in those first 2/3 months to perform much better then he had for almost a year. Remember his skills in the first game away at West Ham, some classy goals vs Bournemouth, Man Utd, Brighton...it would be wrong to say we didn't see a big uptick at the start of Jose's stint with us.
It really went pear-shaped from just before lockdown when we had all those injuries up front and Jose couldn't use Alli as a target man or speed merchant

Yes, you're not wrong, he did get an initial bump out of Dele so I might not be being quite fair in my appraisal/memory of the era.

 

[thfcsteff]

I think you're giving far too much credit/benefit of tje doubt there in implying deliberately or unintentionally that there was some kind of strategy in the Ange appointment over and above the club trying to be "clever" and try to search for some kind of cheat code of getting success without investing the sums that the clubs that are regularly successful do invest.

Well at least allow me that fantasy LOL ...FWIW I find myself agreeing with you!!!

 

[Surfless]

You think those managers would have us floundering in the lower half of the table like this

And lest we forget this run of form has been ongoing more or less since those first ten games

I think that the reasons for the issues might not sit entirely with the manager. And I'm disappointed at the lack of rational thinking at times on here at the moment.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I think that the reasons for the issues might not sit entirely with the manager. And I'm disappointed at the lack of rational thinking at times on here at the moment.

Any club's issues don't sit entirely with the manager. But are we saying that sitting in 15th is totally outside the responsibility of the manager?
In fact, what % of blame goes to him for this, our worst placing at this time of year for perhaps 20 years?

Similarly, when we were flying high last season, what % of credit was that to the same manager?

 

[fernadez]

With Dele, I remember he was sent off in a European match and that seemed to be the start of the end. It was like he lost his way. It’s such a shame as he was huge for us during his best days. I hope he can find some form at Como but unfortunately his sending off at the weekend won’t have helped.

This was the turning point.

The media got onto him about the aggression in his game etc, think he had swore while playing for England as well.

He sanitised his game and was never the same after that.