Ange’s system / formation

[johnola]

We are a fairly happy ship, but we are stuck in the doldrums and the turds and jetsam are in close attendance.

We need the summer trade winds to fill the sails with some energy for the new season.

More strength to Postecoglu’s elbow and COYS.

 

[tommysvr]

Think we also need to accept that progress with Ange may not be linear.

Sorry I agree with everything (obviously...it's why I've been told I browse this forum looking to shoot down negative comments) but if anyone is just learning that progress isn't linear then they've got bigger problems than Spurs finishing 5th. Progress is never ever linear, even when it appears so. It isn't in our personal lives and it isn't in football.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Sorry I agree with everything (obviously...it's why I've been told I browse this forum looking to shoot down negative comments) but if anyone is just learning that progress isn't linear then they've got bigger problems than Spurs finishing 5th. Progress is never ever linear, even when it appears so. It isn't in our personal lives and it isn't in football.

I reckon if Ange finishes lower than 5th next year, you’ll see a bunch of “Ange out” sentiment by the masses because “we’re going backwards”.

The guy has a vision. It may prove to be successful, it may not. But he deserves a proper amount of time to try it. As long as he delivers a respectable finish next season, I’d give him another and review then.

If I’m not wrong Bill Nic delivered some ropey finishes between his successes, Burkinshaw got us relegated before winning 3 trophies and Fergie famously had United in mid table before dominating the English game. Arteta, more recently, had poor finishes before turning them into contenders.

Of course, sticking with a guy isn’t a guarantee to success. But if we do what everyone else does, sack managers at the first sign of going backwards, we’ll never be successful because they are too well resourced and have too much of a head start on us.

Let’s commit to this guy for a proper crack at it even if some of us have doubts and criticisms of him. He might just prove me wrong and prove you right.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

I reckon if Ange finishes lower than 5th next year, you’ll see a bunch of “Ange out” sentiment by the masses because “we’re going backwards”.

Sorry for cutting your post but this I 100% agree with. It’s being billed as if Ange finishes 8th then Levy won’t be patient, but it’s the fans who’ll hound him out or get on Levy’s back to act as they did with AVB, Jose, Nuno & Conte.

If the fans are happy then Ange won’t be going anywhere, if not then he’s in danger. Ange has even said the same at the start of the season to the what would be a successful season question “the fans will let me know mate”.

Personally I’m genuinely very happy with this season, definitely petered out, but we’re playing alright for the most part. I’ve only been really disappointed with 3 performances all season, away to Brighton, Fulham and Saudi Sportswashing Machine.

 

[tommysvr]

I reckon if Ange finishes lower than 5th next year, you’ll see a bunch of “Ange out” sentiment by the masses because “we’re going backwards”.

The guy has a vision. It may prove to be successful, it may not. But he deserves a proper amount of time to try it. As long as he delivers a respectable finish next season, I’d give him another and review then.

If I’m not wrong Bill Nic delivered some ropey finishes between his successes, Burkinshaw got us relegated before winning 3 trophies and Fergie famously had United in mid table before dominating the English game. Arteta, more recently, had poor finishes before turning them into contenders.

Of course, sticking with a guy isn’t a guarantee to success. But if we do what everyone else does, sack managers at the first sign of going backwards, we’ll never be successful because they are too well resourced and have too much of a head start on us.

Let’s commit to this guy for a proper crack at it even if some of us have doubts and criticisms of him. He might just prove me wrong and prove you right.

It's like I wrote this myself!

Sacking managers after 18 months hasn't worked for us to date -- the only thing that has worked (relative to the Premier League era) is sticking with a manager for a few years; Jol, Redknapp and Pochettino. As you say, sticking with someone doesn't guarantee success, and sticking with the wrong person is dangerous too - sacking Conte and Mourinho was the correct call imo - but that's not Ange and he needs the time and space to try to be successful.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Comparisons to Poch surely also has to take into account the quality of the best teams in the league at that time compared to now.

It takes time. Like it did for Poch, Arteta, Klopp. There's so much to be optimistic and happy about. Some of the football we're playing is breathtaking.

We're still short on missing pieces in the starting 11, then also the squad. Like for those other managers that have needed time.

If we're still seeing those same weaknesses hurting us with a similar frequency a year from now I'll start getting concerned.

The job Ange has done so far has been incredibly impressive. Losing Kane, completely changing the way we play, integrating a lot of new players, quite a few younger players without PL experience.

I think he'll continue to do very impressive work. Why wouldn't he with another summer transfer window, another preseason, players more used to his system.

The one worry I have is that I’m not convinced the issues we have are due to the quality of the players and switching in better ones would automatically solve them. Our set piece defending is terrible and we’re not doing anything about the single tactic that is causing most of the issue.

The overcommitting forward and relying on VDV winning multiple one on one battles with the opposing CF is also quite alarming. I’m hoping (assuming) that, as most would, Ange will learn and make some pragmatic adjustments. However some of his comments do not suggest this, though that could just be bravado to the press…. I certainly hope it is!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The one worry I have is that I’m not convinced the issues we have are due to the quality of the players and switching in better ones would automatically solve them. Out set piece defending is terrible and we’re not doing anything about the single tactic that is causing most of the issue. The overcommitting forward and relying on VDV winning multiple one on one battles with the opposing CF is also quite alarming. I’m hoping (assuming) that, as most would, Ange will learn and make some pragmatic adjustments. However some of his comments do not suggest this, though that could just be bravado to the press…. I certainly hope it is!

It’s an odd mix
The player quality now is high as you say
But are they all suited to Ange ball… that’s the question

The scary bit is this set piece problem is fixable. Very fixable
We’re not even the worst at it which is scary
But addressing that has a huge impact on the return in points.
Arsenal may win the league with set pieces being a huge part of it. City use them well too
We need to maximise everything where we can

 

[Finney Is Back]

It's like I wrote this myself!

Sacking managers after 18 months hasn't worked for us to date -- the only thing that has worked (relative to the Premier League era) is sticking with a manager for a few years; Jol, Redknapp and Pochettino. As you say, sticking with someone doesn't guarantee success, and sticking with the wrong person is dangerous too - sacking Conte and Mourinho was the correct call imo - but that's not Ange and he needs the time and space to try to be successful.

All of them were only stuck with because they achieved league finishes that were higher than expectations at the time. As soon as their results dipped they were all sacked.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I kinda agree with @DubaiSpur that we have a decent sample size now.

I’m concerned, based on what we have seen for the few months, that I can’t see any kind of consistent plan in either direction.

I’m frustrated that he appears to be stubborn in changing things that clearly are not working.

I can’t remember what I expected at the start of the season, but right now I expect much better than this.

I sort of expected our season to be the complete reverse of what we’ve seen…. Bad form early on as the players came to terms with the new tactics with that turning around in the second half of the season to finish strongly.

We’ve instead seen great form early on as the opposition struggled to counter our inverted full back shape but poor form as teams have learnt how to counter that better and also that we are the weakest team in the league at defending inswingers into our 6 yard box.

 

[Finney Is Back]

And I agree
We have progressed massively and it’s quickly being forgotten
If the league results were flipped and we were ending the season with the start we had the fans would be bouncing

Yes, but that would be a lot less worrying in many ways.

 

[Finney Is Back]

That squad was really strong in 14/15.

Think much better than what we have now.

Only because you are considering the players some of them eventually became.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Was pretty sure you'd been niggling away during this rough period. Apologies if not.

But Ange has chosen his method for set pieces, as far as we know it's largely handled by Mason and Jedinak in training. Two young coaches who will likely be improving their processes alongside the young squad we have.

There's no reason to believe it won't get better.

Well it certainly can’t get any worse!

 

[jrh]

Well it certainly can’t get any worse!

Careful what you wish for

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I sort of expected our season to be the complete reverse of what we’ve seen…. Bad form early on as the players came to terms with the new tactics with that turning around in the second half of the season to finish strongly.

We’ve instead seen great form early on as the opposition struggled to counter our inverted full back shape but poor form as teams have learnt how to counter that better and also that we are the weakest team in the league at defending inswingers into our 6 yard box.

that could also be partly due to said weakness and a lack of games

Out downward spiral started when key players were out and we haven’t clicked enough since

I’m playing devils advocate here

 

[Finney Is Back]

It’s first season syndrome
Many other coaches have had it at bigger clubs than ours
We haven’t actually had a fit squad by the way as we haven’t had a striker in the squad since Richy got injured

If it’s any consolation a new manager at Bournemouth had a mare of a start but now has set a club record for points in this division, and is starting from January I believe they are 4th (I think that’s what I heard on a pod)
As I’ve said previously if you flipped the form around and we were finishing the season the way we started everyone would be calling Ange a miracle worker

If it’s like this next season then I think it’s fair game to be worried. If the form continues it’s not a good look at all IMO


View attachment 17085

Again, that looks great for Bournemouth. Poor start as his players got used to the new system but then great form as the system clicked. I would be much happier if our season had been in reverse (which is what I expected)

 

[Finney Is Back]

Think we also need to accept that progress with Ange may not be linear. A lot of people expected that the first 10 games would become the norm for us under Ange once we had all our players back. That really isn't the case and is a mad expectation when you look at what he inherited and the quality of opposition. We may have other good spells followed by lulls.

I'm very dubious about his ability to be really successful here but I have to say, big picture, he's exceeded my expectations for the season and wildly exceeded my expectations on the off-field stuff. That's good enough for me to stick with him, support him and hope that my misgivings are wrong.

Next season, he finishes top 6 again, he'll have done well, top 4 he'll have done amazing. If he finishes top 8/10, as long as there isn't mutiny in the squad, I think he'll deserve a third season.

I agree but am reasonably convinced that 8th or lower sees him sacked by the board.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Again, that looks great for Bournemouth. Poor start as his players got used to the new system but then great form as the system clicked. I would be much happier if our season had been in reverse (which is what I expected)

As I say, if that had happened the hype machine would be huge

There are so many variables in this league that make it so competitive

We know teams have changed their style against since Christmas and I remain convinced that if we had a fit striker/CF instead of a weak Sonny we would have got more points in the bag. That may have changed the view on the progress so far

But it’s all ifs, buts and maybes…

 

[Baleforce]

Only because you are considering the players some of them eventually became.

Yeah, but they had it.

Comparison at the same ages.

 

[Bishop]

The one worry I have is that I’m not convinced the issues we have are due to the quality of the players and switching in better ones would automatically solve them. Our set piece defending is terrible and we’re not doing anything about the single tactic that is causing most of the issue.

The overcommitting forward and relying on VDV winning multiple one on one battles with the opposing CF is also quite alarming. I’m hoping (assuming) that, as most would, Ange will learn and make some pragmatic adjustments. However some of his comments do not suggest this, though that could just be bravado to the press…. I certainly hope it is!

To play the Ange way in the PL we realistically need players quite a few levels better than we already have, that's just the requirement. Now whether that's a realistic expectation I don't know, but it's never gonna work with the current calibre of player.

 

[Finney Is Back]

To play the Ange way in the PL we realistically need players quite a few levels better than we already have, that's just the requirement. Now whether that's a realistic expectation I don't know, but it's never gonna work with the current calibre of player.

In which case I fear we are doomed to fail. We don't have unlimited budget to go and buy players a few levels better than the ones we have been buying over the last few years.