Jose Mourinho - SACKED

[thfcsteff]

And you can ( and do) blame Jose for all our ills, listen we could go round and round the garden with our opposite views and never agree over this. I said in my earlier post that Jose has made mistakes ALL managers do, i loved Poch almost as much as you and i was against his sacking and thought he should have been given more time but he has gone and as i say most of the players who got on the pitch the other night were here under him.

They helped get the best manager we have had since KB sacked and that was said by a lot of fans when Poch went, and they seem to be doing the same here. So to end i do blame some of the players ( they have form for it)
but i also accept that Jose is not faultless in this either. IMO

In the spirit of debate as always mate...

First of all, for the record, you raised Poch's name here again. I did not. So any of the Poch references in this post and the one I posted prior in response to your assertions.

Your first point has no relevance to my post. I actually do not blame all our ills on Mourinho. There are others responsible. But I am merely pointing out that at this moment in time, who has ultimate responsibility? You seem unwilling to bestow that duty upon the manager, which I find strange.

Second point. "Most?" OK, if that is your definition of "most" then so be it. I think the breakdown shows that it was hardly "most".

Who helped anyone get the sack? Please. There were a myriad of issues behind what happened with Pochettino, and that's a wagon we can circle in his thread if you so wish, but blaming the players is a cop out IMO. Managers and coaches are there to manage and coach. Chairman are there to lead. There are many who can share responsibility. Now, if you give the proper credence to Levy here, and say that he has done his level best to support Mourinho, then the avenues for responsibility get narrower.

Finally, you claim "a lot of fans" said that "players helped get Poch the sack." I don't think so. More to the point, some fans piled in him when -despite context- it wasn't going well. HE was the problem according to moaners, and rarely were players cited as the reason.

The truth is that Mourinho is amidst a very, very tough moment right now. He has choices to make, and most revolve around how he manages and conducts affairs at the club. Is he being held to a high standard? Absolutely. He was sold to everyone with his reputation and trophy record as the man who WOULD bring it all back for us. He still might well deliver a couple trophies. If you're going to feel that winning the Carabao Cup is justification for his appt, good for you.
For me personally, only the Europa/top 4 would get him across the line. Were he capable of fostering a sense of pride and entertainment in the club (as opposed to grudging acceptance that he should be supported by virtue of being here) then I think many -including myself- would give him ample time. He is the one who does things in three years or burns the house down.

Make no mistake, he is ultimately responsible for everything going on with the first team squad.

Here's to Jose making a monkey out of me, winning on Thursday, winning Europa, hitting top 4 and setting the table for the title next season! I won't be afraid to tell you I got it wrong mate...

 

[AdamB]

our next 7 games are interesting

Chelsea H
West Brom H
Everton FA CUP A
Emirates Marketing Project A
Wolfsberger EL A
West Ham A
Wolfsberger EL H

if it goes badly then it's a season ender really and potentially a decision would have to be made. on the flip side we could come through it still in the hunt for 3 trophies and top 4 well and truly on.

....this 'in the hunt for 3 trophies point' point which keeps coming up. Can we just acknowledge who we've played?

Carabao Cup
- we had a bye against Orient
- beat Stoke and Brentford (Championship teams)
- beat Cheatski on pens

FA Cup
- beat a team of amateurs
- beat the team who are bottom of the championship

Europa League
- came through a weak group, and not without the odd scare

So, yes, we are in three competitions still but lets not try to suggest that we've been on glorious runs and beaten a range of top class teams

 

[Bedfordspurs]

....this 'in the hunt for 3 trophies point' point which keeps coming up. Can we just acknowledge who we've played?

Carabao Cup
- we had a bye against Orient
- beat Stoke and Brentford (Championship teams)
- beat Cheatski on pens

FA Cup
- beat a team of amateurs
- beat the team who are bottom of the championship

Europa League
- came through a weak group, and not without the odd scare

So, yes, we are in three competitions still but lets not try to suggest that we've been on glorious runs and beaten a range of top class teams

Can only beat the teams in front of you
I mean that’s literally what cup football is
Your Just highlighting here that no matter what we do under this manager you won’t be happy.

 

[Finney Is Back]

He boyed off bigger fish than dele, and brought them back with aplomb. Sammy Eto' being a prime example.

Dele has not been firing for well over a season, so again it's finger pointy time at Mourinho.

Dele should look at Ndombele as an example without looking too far.

At the end of the day peak dele in this team could do wonders.

Let's hope that he is determined to play for Mourinho and can kick back on.

I’m not sure it’s fair to say that. Dele was very good for Jose at first, one of our best players in that initial new manager bounce. We then lost Kane and Son to injury and Jose shoved him up front, Dele toiled away but he’s no centre forward.

This season he has hardly played and been scapeg0ated for occasions when the whole team has played poorly or singled out for minor, sub optimal actions as though they are huge crimes.

Other players like Dier, Hugo and Davies have made far bigger individual mistakes and Jose says nothing and keeps picking them. Players like Lamela can break COVID rules, do nothing when on the pitch other than lose possession way more than Dele and yet still play ahead of him. It defies logic really.

The manager appears to have something against the player and I can’t help but wonder if it was the long ball comment in the documentary as we have almost no creativity in the team at the moment with a very creative player in our squad being unused other than in the ‘playing is a punishment’ type games against Marine and FC Pig Farmer of Estonia in the Euro also rans bowl.

 

[glasgowspur]

We all knew what style of play we were getting when Jose signed so we need to get over that.
It would be acceptable if we were doing better but at the moment it's hard to swallow.

What I can't understand, and this goes all the way back to the WHU game, is that we have had opportunities to kill other teams momentum (WHU) or punish them when they are on a bad run (Liverpool) and instead of being on the front foot early on and putting them under pressure we've given them the ball and let them come at us.
Liverpool hadn't won in seven or scored in seven hours, is that right?
If we go out there and attack them, put them under pressure and get the first goal I believe we could have given them a good beating and derailed their season.
So, push us up the table and put one of our main competition under pressure.
But it looked like we went out for damage limitation.
It was the same against Chelsea and Leicester.

I've said for years, there's an ingrained losers mentality at the club. Goes higher than the players.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Can only beat the teams in front of you
I mean that’s non-figuratively what cup football is
Your Just highlighting here that no matter what we do under this manager you won’t be happy.

That is indeed true. Though I think we’re “in the hunt” for the Europa in the same way that a bloke on his horse, in his hunting outfit, gathered outside the pub with others waiting for the hounds to arrive is in the hunt. We’ll see whether we remain in the hunt the moment we actually have to jump over a reasonable sized hedge.

I actually wonder whether our early start in the Europa partly explains our decent start this season and our recent drop off in performances? I wonder if we were significantly fitter than our peers at the very start of the season and now that they have caught up on the fitness they find it easy to dominate us with our weak, small club tactics?

 

[Finney Is Back]

I dont see how Dele fits into a Mourinho team, either positionally or work-rate. I hope he stays and a new manager tries to get him back to his best

I don’t get the work rate comment? Dele was an absolute pressing monster for Pochettino’s team, stats were right at the top of the chart.

 

[Gazza]

I’m not sure it’s fair to say that. Dele was very good for Jose at first, one of our best players in that initial new manager bounce. We then lost Kane and Son to injury and Jose shoved him up front, Dele toiled away but he’s no centre forward.

This season he has hardly played and been scapeg0ated for occasions when the whole team has played poorly or singled out for minor, sub optimal actions as though they are huge crimes.

Other players like Dier, Hugo and Davies have made far bigger individual mistakes and Jose says nothing and keeps picking them. Players like Lamela can break COVID rules, do nothing when on the pitch other than lose possession way more than Dele and yet still play ahead of him. It defies logic really.

The manager appears to have something against the player and I can’t help but wonder if it was the long ball comment in the documentary as we have almost no creativity in the team at the moment with a very creative player in our squad being unused other than in the ‘playing is a punishment’ type games against Marine and FC Pig Farmer of Estonia in the Euro also rans bowl.

I do not disagree with a lot of what you have posted sir. I think Mourinho was trying to kick Dele hoping that he will fight back on the pitch and show more urgency and focus. I think they both know Dele can offer so much more and thats the player Mourinho wants, week in week out.

Perhaps he didnt see him training and fighting hard enough like Ndombele in training and was isolating him expecting more. He did the same with various players previously, bigger named players than Dele. The best players found it in them to show and excel, some on the other hand floundered.

Hopefully Dele can regain some form and plays to Mourinhos system, its the only way he will succeed here under the current management. An aggressive on form Dele is exactly what this team needs. A midfield trio of PEH, NDombele and Dele on paper is as good as any in the premier league. But Dele has to do more of what is asked as if our defence is exposed then we will leak goals as seen. I think thats one of the main reasons Dele has not been picked over a less talented player in Sissoko.

Sissoko is prepared to put his body on the line and help us extensively in defence to help protect our fragile backline. Can Dele do the same? I hope so. The amount of times Sissoko thunders from box to box is great ,but when he is in the attacking third you just know nothing is going to come of it. Now replace Dele in that final third there is going to be some decent progression or an attempt at goal.

 

[Bishop]

I don’t get the work rate comment? Dele was an absolute pressing monster for Pochettino’s team, stats were right at the top of the chart.

I'm not even a big fan of Dele but yes Dele pressed well under Poch although I don't see the issue there anyway as we don't even press as a team.

We retreat very quickly into the low block, so the question is probably does Jose think Dele can be disciplined in closing down which I can't see why he wouldn't be.

 

[Mikey10]

Satire is officially dead.

‘Giving us nothing’ – Sherwood critical of Tottenham’s French international
https://www.spurs-web.com/spurs-new...-critical-of-tottenhams-french-international/

 

[AdamB]

Can only beat the teams in front of you
I mean that’s non-figuratively what cup football is
Your Just highlighting here that no matter what we do under this manager you won’t be happy.

Not true - but with his style of football, even before the other baggage of arguing with players, he's not worth having unless he finishes top 4.

I know you can only beat the teams in front of you, however one of the arguments which I've seen regularly on here for sticking with Jose is that we're doing well and might win 3 cups. My point is that we are still in those cups largely because of who we've played, not because of beating decent teams

 

[Finney Is Back]

Were you raised by an Asian family? Interesting metaphor.

Jose breeds a winning meteorology with players that are up for it, the weak are sold out frozen out. Perhaps he needs to adapt but I wouldn't question his man management being a serial winner that he is.

Does he breed it? Or just manage teams who already win lots

Been over this before, against Brighton the other night we had ( at various times) 10 of the of the players who helped get Poch the sack were on the field. The concenus when Poch went from some was that it was the players who got him sacked by downing tools, Jose seemed to have got them playing again earlier in the season but they have reverted to the same actions again.

Has Jose made mistakes? of course he has just like ALL managers do but the players have to take the responsibility on there shoulders as well, they did it under Poch after all.

Yet this manager has brought 9 players to the club....

 

[Baleforce]

Does he breed it? Or just manage teams who already win lots

Porto hadn't won the league for a while (at all in the Primera Liga era), or the CL for even longer.

Chelsea hadn't won the league for half a century.

Inter hadn't won the CL for 40+ years.

Madrid hadn't won the league for 4 years.

Chelsea only managed to win the league once whilst he was away, yet won it almost as soon as he came back.

United hadn't won a European trophy for nearly a decade.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Not true - but with his style of football, even before the other baggage of arguing with players, he's not worth having unless he finishes top 4.

I know you can only beat the teams in front of you, however one of the arguments which I've seen regularly on here for sticking with Jose is that we're doing well and might win 3 cups. My point is that we are still in those cups largely because of who we've played, not because of beating decent teams

So it’s his fault we have only beaten weak teams.... I mean it’s not as if we have got knocked out of cups by lesser sides before
odd
I mean very odd
Statistically as a club we have faced the weakest sides in cups even under other managers (athletic did a decent article on it) Haven’t won any in a long time

 

[Gazza]

So it’s his fault we have only beaten weak teams.... I mean it’s not as if we have got knocked out of cups by lesser sides before
odd
I mean very odd
Statistically as a club we have faced the weakest sides in cups even under other managers (athletic did a decent article on it) Haven’t won any in a long time

Its so silly to assume that we will beat the weaker teams, bigger teams have failed against weaker clubs, brick we have failed previously in beating lesser teams.

Its almost a no win situation for those that want to point the finger ... we beat a lesser team (Big deal), we lose to a lesser deal (more pointy time).

We are in a final and alive in the other cups why not enjoy it?

 

[AdamB]

So it’s his fault we have only beaten weak teams.... I mean it’s not as if we have got knocked out of cups by lesser sides before
odd
I mean very odd
Statistically as a club we have faced the weakest sides in cups even under other managers (athletic did a decent article on it) Haven’t won any in a long time

I didnt say that did I? I said that a lot of people are putting forward the fact that we're still in 3 cups as a success and reason for Jose staying. Aside from teh Chelsea win on penalties, we'd have been extremely disappointed not to still be in the 3 cup still given who we've played

 

[Finney Is Back]

I'm not even a big fan of Dele but yes Dele pressed well under Poch although I don't see the issue there anyway as we don't even press as a team.

We retreat very quickly into the low block, so the question is probably does Jose think Dele can be disciplined in closing down which I can't see why he wouldn't be.

Indeed. He isn’t right for the low block.... Then again just about none of our players are. Toby, Dier and Sanchez all terrible in the air, the latter two also masters at losing their man in the box. Our two first choice full backs much better on the front foot than back foot, yet have the pace and energy to get back and recover if necessary. Our midfield, all better on the ball than off it, with exception of Sissoko (much better off it) and Hojbjeg (good both on and off the ball). Our forwards, all skillful, good footballers with an eye for a pass. If we want to play this version of Jose ball then the first thing we should sell Dier, Toby and Sanchez for whatever we can get for them and buy Mee and Tarkowski at Burnley. We’ll then at least get a lot of nil-nil draws.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Its so silly to assume that we will beat the weaker teams, bigger teams have failed against weaker clubs, brick we have failed previously in beating lesser teams.

Its almost a no win situation for those that want to point the finger ... we beat a lesser team (Big deal), we lose to a lesser deal (more pointy time).

We are in a final and alive in the other cups why not enjoy it?

Because the man in charge is a divisive character hated by fans
I do wonder what would have happened if he hadn’t managed on these shores before and had no baggage that way, but had won those trophies managing in Germany instead (as well as Spain and Italy)
I said it before but Pochs greatest achievement wasn’t the finals or the CL, it was uniting a fan base that IMO by 40 years of supporting has never been United before
Even under Harry’s swash buckling football he abs haters because of who he was and who managed previously (rarely for what he did on the pitch)
George Graham actually wins a trophy and was despised because of his history
Ramos... could never be Jol, and of course hated tomato sauce
Poch had no baggage, united the fans and played some great football. He earned the longest stint here as a manager in a very long time. So who ever came after him was ok a hiding to nothing with so many people.
Imagine if it was Eddie Howe or Hasenhutl now!!!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I didnt say that did I? I said that a lot of people are putting forward the fact that we're still in 3 cups as a success and reason for Jose staying. Aside from teh Chelsea win on pelanties, we'd have been extremely disappointed not to still be in the 3 cup still given who we've played

But we have regularly lost in cups to lesser sides. It’s s.purs.y

 

[Finney Is Back]

Porto hadn't won the league for a while (at all in the Primera Liga era), or the CL for even longer.

Chelsea hadn't won the league for half a century.

Inter hadn't won the CL for 40+ years.

Madrid hadn't won the league for 4 years.

Chelsea only managed to win the league once whilst he was away, yet won it almost as soon as he came back.

United hadn't won a European trophy for nearly a decade.

.... Porto had won their league in: 1990, 1992, 1993, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998 and 1999.
They also won their version of the FA Cup in: 1991, 1994, 1998 and 2000
They appointed Mourinho in 2002.