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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

I am not the one making out immigrants are the bad guys here and lazy, you are and you have zero facts or stats to back that up, thats why you used stats that again.........include British, it does not matter at what % that is, the stats are useless in your argument.

You had to spin some yarn about the British black community despite most metrics used by the likes of the Institute of race relations points to massive unemployment due deprived upbringings, lack of equal opportunities and born into environments of crime and drugs. So absolutely the black metric in your graph would be hugely swollen by British Ethnic minorities who are unemployed. Which makes it a useless stat.

I didn't cut anything off because there is reasoning and further reading on why women are unemployed, namely because in Asian and sub continent cultures the women they are home makers, so the men, of which as that report showed are more likely to be in work than Brits (hurts that bit don't it) the women would be homemakers. That does not mean unemployed and lazy so I have no issue with that stat whatsoever
But I have.

You have provided nothing, you are even a liar and and a cherry picker.

Does this remind you of a cherry picked print screen, cut and paste. Surely, if you was was oh so correct, you would have posted a full grab like I have providing more data from the figures?

Untitled.png

That is right, lets have a look....
Untitled1.png

Then you have the the cheek to claim that others are liars and mislead, and you have just done the same.

Shouldn't women work in your world, you misogynist?
 
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But I have.

You have provided nothing, you are even a liar and and a cherry picker.

Does this remind you of a cherry picked print screen, cut and paste. Surely, if you was was oh so correct, you would have posted a link and full grab like I have of where you got the info from.

View attachment 17866

That is right, lets have a look....
View attachment 17867

Then you have the the check to claim that others are liars and mislead, and you have just done the same.

Shouldn't women work in your world, you misogynist?

You are not making sense, in fact you stopped making any sense a while back.

And your bolded bit makes me laugh, having travelled the world extensively and knowing what cultures look like and how they live, explaining that many prefer to stay home is not me stating what they should do. Anyone with a brain can see thats what I was saying so you are making yourself look a mockery now.

I had no reason to crop anything, the reports are there for all to see, based on your metrics and verbiage, British men are lazier than migrants and migrant women look after the family home so are far from lazy. Literally fcuks all over your made up rhetoric of the last few weeks.

And with that and the fact you have embarrassed yourself no end with your black cab driver logic and to save others from my part in whats turned into a petty argument, I am not going to engage with someone who is clearly a racist cnut who has issues

Get fcuked
 
You are not making sense, in fact you stopped making any sense a while back.

And your bolded bit makes me laugh, having travelled the world extensively and knowing what cultures look like and how they live, explaining that many prefer to stay home is not me stating what they should do. Anyone with a brain can see thats what I was saying so you are making yourself look a mockery now.

I had no reason to crop anything, the reports are there for all to see, based on your metrics and verbiage, British men are lazier than migrants and migrant women look after the family home so are far from lazy. Literally fcuks all over your made up rhetoric of the last few weeks.

And with that and the fact you have embarrassed yourself no end with your black cab driver logic and to save others from my part in whats turned into a petty argument, I am not going to engage with someone who is clearly a racist cnut who has issues

Get fcuked
Touchy.

Telling me to get ****ed and calling me a racist c**t for pointing out your hypocrisy and glaring holes in your argument.

You really have proved my point that you debate like a three year old.

And I laugh at your "they are there for everyone to see." So why did you crop half the information off and only portray half the information?
 
Well here you go, the figure you were after, unemployment rates by country of birth. Only people born in North America and the EU were less like to unemployed than people born in the UK of all ethnicity. This figure does not include those that are in full time training etc.

Just pure unemployment regarding country of birth rate as you pointed out. See, I even went and did you research for you.

With everyone outside of the EU apart from NA and Oceania being more likely to be unemployed actual migrants.

And the reason why migrants are more likely to be employed under the heading you supplied. Is because is because a higher % of British born are more likely to be in training, education, and university etc Not to mention those that have disabilities, medical conditions, mental health issues and learning difficulties on top of that.

Where as migrants will be more likely working than being in training as most would have finished their education.

At what point was I lying about those figures I posted? I warned you, that you might not like the figures.

No wonder you didn't want to post the figures and tried to manipulate the information as this was sitting on the site you used.

Calling me a racist c**t for being factually correct.

Untitled1.png
 
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The problem started from trying to hide the identity of suspect because he was BAME, and in doing so, allowed rumours to fly.

For me, the problem started because society wants an 'instant answer', an 'instant protagonist', so given such a climate it is more important than ever that facts prevail. It was a trigger point in the making; in the end it was made and pulled.
 
@SkipRat appreciate the detailed responses, we remain in agreement on many things when it comes down to it, and I think we remain firmly opposite on the same couple of angles and aspects, albeit I will agree that of course there are some nasty people among the immigrant community just as there are in any community, and that yes, there are drug gangs and the like exploiting tragedies (rather like governments tend to on occasion!), but I still believe the focus should be on the collective which is getting fudged rather than easily-scoped groups in it.

I did want to reprint this phrase you wrote:

"Then there is the moral question of sucking countries dry of their human resources, just because we are to lazy to address the real issues."

I think this is absolutely central to all the issues society has, where I would differ (or perhaps it just needs defining) is on the point of laziness versus intent. Sadly, the truth is people want cheap, cheerful, fast and convenient. If that means a t-shirt can cost a few quid less because it is sweat-shopped, most people will go there. I try to buy food from local producers and I try not to use the amazons of this world (don't worry - my hypocrisy is still somewhat alive in so much as I do live an urban existence which is part of this 'cheap convenience' culture but I try to be mindful wherever possible, especially when it comes to supporting local business)...I think what is utterly 'alive' right now is that even that 'cheap labour resource-sucking' option is now priced like a fair trade 'bespoke' item more and more. It feels to me like there is a 'land-grab' by corporations and private businesses in terms of maximising profit margins beyond even UNreasonable into utterly destructive for society. Meanwhile, attentions are being focussed on 'them'...dangerous times for sure.

I'm glad we've been able to find a pathway to discussion. I might not agree with everything you say, but I want to learn your perspective. And (as I think is the way in the world generally) we do have a lot more in common than might've first appeared...
 
For me, the problem started because society wants an 'instant answer', an 'instant protagonist', so given such a climate it is more important than ever that facts prevail. It was a trigger point in the making; in the end it was made and pulled.
I don't know, I think it was on the back drops of years of silence on certain aspects. That built on the things like the grooming cases in Rotherham and elsewhere.

It build up huge levels of distrust in the media and the establishment. I think it is a bit ignorant to think that it's a simple case of "instant answer."

When you look back over what happened during Brexit, as after the first four years of the vote, you have sections of the Labour party calling or insinuating that everyone that voted Brexit was racist, the guardian printing articles regarding Brexit next to articles about the history of Nazi Germany. Which did nothing but tinkle people off as people from all parties voted to leave. Even Green Party voters voted to leave, does that mean the Green Party is a Nazi party? Of course, not, but that is stupid levels of disillusionment a majority pro-remain parliament was operating from. Sucking up to the EU and trying to force the electorate to take a 2nd referendum, becaue they didn't like the result.

The the daily does of lies and spin, as politicians refused to accept the result of the referendum, continuously ignoring the concerns of citizens across the country. Despite the people voting and using democracy to enact their wishes, yet government repeatedly doing nothing, despite promising to do something.

Whilst the EU certainly did have a big role to play in their arrogant disregard of British concerns at the time, the government in the way they have behaved has also sowed the seeds of discord too, by the way it has behaved for the last 10 years or more.

You might have been right, if the same problem and concerns regarding immigration accross Europe wasn't a thing. But it is a thing and you can't ignore that. And some these countries like Sweden, Holland, Denmark, are pretty much chilled and cool nations that are opened minded, then their is France and Germany with the rise AfD, would you say that this tension that is slowly rising across Europe a "instant answer" thing? No of course not. I posted a link regarding sexual crime in Sweden, and now the Swedish are marching and protesting in their country, due to massive increases in crime largely from viliolent migrant crime, and the recent killing of a father.

You can not simply pass things of as "instant answer" or "instant protagonist", it's way to simplistic and ignores of an ocean of nuanced reason behind it, in a tangled web of stresses pulling on each other.

It is far far deeper than you think and yes... one of those stresses maybe have been the need for instant information, but on the flip side being, by not being open in the first the place would have lead to "what are they hiding this time," combined with the general anger of things over the last decade or so, those nuanced web stresses finally got out of control.
 
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@SkipRat appreciate the detailed responses, we remain in agreement on many things when it comes down to it, and I think we remain firmly opposite on the same couple of angles and aspects, albeit I will agree that of course there are some nasty people among the immigrant community just as there are in any community, and that yes, there are drug gangs and the like exploiting tragedies (rather like governments tend to on occasion!), but I still believe the focus should be on the collective which is getting fudged rather than easily-scoped groups in it.

I did want to reprint this phrase you wrote:

"Then there is the moral question of sucking countries dry of their human resources, just because we are to lazy to address the real issues."

I think this is absolutely central to all the issues society has, where I would differ (or perhaps it just needs defining) is on the point of laziness versus intent. Sadly, the truth is people want cheap, cheerful, fast and convenient. If that means a t-shirt can cost a few quid less because it is sweat-shopped, most people will go there. I try to buy food from local producers and I try not to use the amazons of this world (don't worry - my hypocrisy is still somewhat alive in so much as I do live an urban existence which is part of this 'cheap convenience' culture but I try to be mindful wherever possible, especially when it comes to supporting local business)...I think what is utterly 'alive' right now is that even that 'cheap labour resource-sucking' option is now priced like a fair trade 'bespoke' item more and more. It feels to me like there is a 'land-grab' by corporations and private businesses in terms of maximising profit margins beyond even UNreasonable into utterly destructive for society. Meanwhile, attentions are being focussed on 'them'...dangerous times for sure.

I'm glad we've been able to find a pathway to discussion. I might not agree with everything you say, but I want to learn your perspective. And (as I think is the way in the world generally) we do have a lot more in common than might've first appeared...
I think we will agree on more things as time goes by.

I support local business too especially in the market area where I live. The best shop is a little asian shop that sells important rice, foods, black bean chilli sauce, fresh ramen noodles, imported... Love it, I pay a little more, but the money stays in the local community and doesn't disappear in to offshore bank accounts.

And the market is thriving too, always busy always great fresh home made produce. Also highlights the damage that high rent costs are having on business in general, as the market is way way cheaper on overheads and everything is flourishing.

Love it.
 
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This would be quite clever/funny. Don't pay to nationalise water companies, just ban them from making any profits

Said this exact something on another forum.

Then when said companies collapse as investors pull out, gov to buy them all out for cheap.

Would be a good move by Labour.
 
The bit in bold, I complete agree with, we do have a problem with people not wanting to do certain jobs, but then their is another flip to that coin. We are constantly told that the English are lazy, no one wants work as you have pointed out, but the truth is, as a % the white British are the group lest likely to be out of work.
View attachment 17848

And here as well

View attachment 17849


Now of course, there could be many reasons for this, but decades, we have been constantly told that white people are lazy and that migrants are harder workers, this is simple not true. People have used but the Polish work two jobs, look at how hardworking they are... What they fail to tell you is that most of them are snorting coke to keep going, and I know this as I have worked in places where this happens, and after 5 years they are burned out and go home with a pot of money, and good to them, they worked hard for it. What it does though is create unrealistic work expectancies by employers that British don't want to work as hard too. And the British, they can't, they can't go home after 5 years, they have families to provide for and can't be snorting coke for decades to work at an insane level work.

Of course, I am not saying this is everywhere, but it is a still a huge factor in things and needs to be added to the conversation and debate.

Some of the laziest people I have ever worked with have been migrant workers.

So the truth is migrant workers are just like us, you get ya nice ones, ya bad one, you're hard working ones, you're lazy one, smart and thick, and everything in between and a combination of everything.

So yeah, their are a lazy bunch of people who need a kick up the ass, but the answer is not to rely on migration to solve the problem and the problem is not as big as you make it out to be, there has been a great manipulation going on by government that does stack up with figures.

Then there is argument they bringing wealth to the country? Well no, not really, as we have seen they are more likely to be unemployed, but this wealth figure is massively skewed by a tiny minority that bring billions with them. Just as they way they spin deals with companies etc, this deal will make everyone on average £3000 richer.... No most people will get 10p, the top 1% will get millions each.

As for the trump comments, the guy is wigged w**k gibbon. And he is going to win, because the democrats haven't got a clue what they are doing. How cr*p do you have to be to lose to Trump.

And you are making the same mistake about Farage a lot of the time, you hear what you want to hear, and you only ever listen to what been reported, cut to Cherry pick to create a label to attack the person. I hate Farage, especially when it comes to science and climate change, the guy is a blithering idiot, but I like to watch whole videos to understand the context of what is being said, and he doesn't anything near what people think he says the vast majority of the time, most of it is being being twisted by the media that you watch to portray him as something he is not.

Then every cries and throws their teddies out the pram when he gets the third highest number of votes in general elect and the EU referendum and wonder why lost, then come out with outlandish claim that people where this, people where that.

No, the problem was a political elite so arrogant that they new best, that they never listened to the concerns of the people, just insulted them, called them racist, bigots and any other ist and phobe under sun.

And this is why exactly why Trump will win, because the otherside ain't listening.

Jonathon Pie highlights some of the issues here.


You also need to stop assuming, I don't have a seering rage over immigration, I have concerns. I have a seering rage that the only argument from the people I debate with is to label me a racist, bigot, Nazi, and Facist as their first line of debate... Completely ignoring actual evidence from actual studies, to be labelled cherry picking... Well no, studies are studies, I don't get to choose what they say.

I just want balanced and sustainable immigration, and for me 200,000 a year is in no way sustainable as we are already over populated as we already can't grow enough food to feed ourrselves, which has been the case for decades long before we entered the EU most probably. I want criminals to be deported, just as british people when abroad and they commit crime they are deported. I don't want people coming to country who have nothing to offer us at all, in the same way I can't move to any country I want if I have nothing to offer them.

I also want a govenment that has ability to come up with ideas and sell a future vision of the UK and not use migration as a fix all for every problem in the UK, that will never end well. Lowing the bar so low that anyone without a skill can enter, it's just pure lazy government that has sown the seeds of discord. And no, I am not blaming immigrants, I am blaming decades of incompetent governement.

I don't want people arriving by boat, 99% of which, are young working age men and in no way are refugee's, some, a tiny minority, maybe Dr's that media can cherry pick to sell a lie to the people, whilst crime and sexual assaults increase in these area...

Britian has long history of helping refugees and rightly so, but what we are seeing now is not refugees and people are buring their hands pretending that everything is fine and it is not.

It is not just happening here, it's across the whole of Europe, Sweden, Denmark, France, Italy, Germany are all having the same problems with the same reasons and it is they left just bury their head in the sand ignoring the reasons why. And they all don;t understand why.

And I don't want the far right in in charge, but they will, because the left are full on ignoring everything they don't like in the hopes if they lie enough the problem will go away and it want.

As a rule, I never adopt political positions which are shared by...bigots, nazis, fascists and other right-wing loons. Works for me.
 
I'm trying to think how left-wing you have to be to view The Guardian as not being left-wing? Look, The Guardian are very left-wing, but they're also a broadsheet and will report on any officially released government analysis, in a relatively unbiased manner, and I'm not sure this reporting is about The Guardian being against employment reforms. I think they're just reporting on the possible negative consequences of these particular proposed employment reforms. After all, if you have more employment rights, but that means employers can no longer afford to employ as many people, is it un-left-wing thing to question whether they're the right suite of reforms?
The Guardian is and always has been small l liberal.
 
Apologies to the wider board for my language and cannibalising this thread yesterday, came across and drawn into something that was not a good look.

From a personal perspective, having seen good hard working migrants in this country, in mine and others industries, given a hard time in recent times because of dangerous and loose rhetoric's, I don't particularly want to come on here and read weeks and weeks of falsehoods about a set of people trying to work their way through life.

Anyway for those I respect on here having to read the reaction to it, apologies, I will choose to largely avoid this thread and others than promotes those ideals. For those that keep parroting on about migrants like a demented Jive Bunny, I am not going to engage with such obvious and blanketed prejudice

Peace
 
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With all due respect, the "I don't like Farage but" argument is a strange hill to die on, he is as big a bigot and racist as I have seen in politics, his words and views are not being manipulated beyond the facts as you are making out. I think GMB and their presenters are a bunch of idiots BUT he was on there the other week and his excuse for putting out lies about the killing in Southport was that it was not his job to be factual it was the police and establishments job to fact check him and tell people the truth.......I mean what the actual fcuk.........if thats the benchmark for politics and we are basically allowing people to lie about stuff in order to whip up attacks then yeh we are fcuked.

He is not clever he is not a truth sayer, he hates the same people that those that love him hates, thats his whole MO and spiel @thfcsteff says its straight out the Nazi play book "you wanna hate and blame someone for your hard time.......I will tell you who to blame"

The blokes a cnut, the biggest travesty is that the plane crash never did the full job
Thing about Farage and every other far-right politician across Europe whose profile and electoral success has been significantly increased over the last decade or so, is that if mainstream politicians had actually listened to people's concerns and done something about it when they were first being voiced in ernest, people wouldn't have turned to them. In the UK, I go back to the 2010 election amd Gordon Brown labelling a Labour voter in the north a "bigot" when she was questioning him regarding high levels of immigration. There was still an opportunity here for Labour to prevent the beginning of a shift in some of their voter base to precursors of Reform. The Tories also had the same opportunity. People turn to extremes in large numbers when they feel like they don't have any other choice.
 
Apologies to the wider board for my language and cannibalising this thread yesterday, came across and drawn into something that was not a good look.

From a personal perspective, having seen good hard working migrants in this country, in mine and others industries, given a hard time in recent times because of dangerous and loose rhetoric's, I don't particularly want to come on here and read weeks and weeks of falsehoods about a set of people trying to work their way through life.

Anyway for those I respect on here having to read the reaction to it, apologies, I will choose to largely avoid this thread and others than promotes those ideals.


Peace

I feel the same way about threads like this, sadly it will always attract the extremes of opinion [ which ever party they support]. imo
 
Thing about Farage and every other far-right politician across Europe whose profile and electoral success has been significantly increased over the last decade or so, is that if mainstream politicians had actually listened to people's concerns and done something about it when they were first being voiced in ernest, people wouldn't have turned to them. In the UK, I go back to the 2010 election amd Gordon Brown labelling a Labour voter in the north a "bigot" when she was questioning him regarding high levels of immigration. There was still an opportunity here for Labour to prevent the beginning of a shift in some of their voter base to precursors of Reform. The Tories also had the same opportunity. People turn to extremes in large numbers when they feel like they don't have any other choice.

I agree to an extent that people have switched because of being "unheard", I said on here that Brexit was partly to be blamed on the label that "If you were considering it you were thick" which galvanised people and I think Trump won an election on the back of "bunch of deplorables" comment from his opposition, as much as I now agree with both statements, you can't say it, its self harming.

That said, its a stretch that anyone can be blamed for Farage being a right wing racist, we can't blame others for some being pushed towards him, but he is undoubtedly what he is and whether someone wants to deny it or not, words matter and his and others galvanised a response to the Southport killings (as an example) which saw people of certain ethnicities attacked and he should be open to criticism for that. A hard working innocent shopkeeper having to lock himself in because he was attacked by a mob is not a result of people not being listened to, thats just far too accepting of mindless violence and people peddling lies. Ultimately a profile, a wrong profile was put out an endorsed with the knowledge that it was have an impact on those that hate people of said profile, and its proven with what happened after.

I touched on it in my apology but I have seen and heard stories of people who have lived her for 30+ years, colleagues and colleagues of associates who have had an increased hard time for the colour of their skin, many of whom are Brits because this negative rhetoric being put out about "Immigrants", people don't care if they see someone brown in a seat on the tube and that person has ben a Dr who is then told to "fcuk off back home" (yes happened to my Mums old colleague)......Because no one is even bothering to distinguish anymore between British, Immigrant, Ethnic, Illegal immigrant, the rhetoric now is plainly "there are too many immigrants" and thats a dangerous message for people daily who are here, many by absolute right who now have to deal with comments and actions of others far too often.

That will be my last on the subject because working in an industry that is supported massively by a growing migrant population its something I feel passionate about and that likely spills.

Enjoy
 
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I would also add non news programs so documentaries etc and most of those are a certain view. I actually even stopped watching countrywise because one particular presenter (the ginger one) brought politics into every segment.

A show like that should rarely touch on politics. He was worse then Gary Lineker for giving his views.
I don't watch TV at all. It's just garbage. Everything is an agenda pushing tick box.

They just can't tell stories any more with out shoving politics at the same time.

I don't even watch Netflix or Amazon, it's just agenda pushing garbage, the doesn't respect IP's.
 
As a rule, I never adopt political positions which are shared by...bigots, nazis, fascists and other right-wing loons. Works for me.
That's great, and how is it that working out in America, the UK and and across Europe?

You looking forward to Trump being in power? I'm not.

But then people band those words around like confetti at a wedding and ultimately lose their power of what they.
 
Apologies to the wider board for my language and cannibalising this thread yesterday, came across and drawn into something that was not a good look.

From a personal perspective, having seen good hard working migrants in this country, in mine and others industries, given a hard time in recent times because of dangerous and loose rhetoric's, I don't particularly want to come on here and read weeks and weeks of falsehoods about a set of people trying to work their way through life.

Anyway for those I respect on here having to read the reaction to it, apologies, I will choose to largely avoid this thread and others than promotes those ideals.

Peace
I have worked with hard working migrants, i have worked with lazy ones and any shade of grey in between.

ANd the reason they are being given a hard time, is becausev government has been ingoring the concerns of the people and not addressing the issue. Just sticking their fingers in their ears singing la la la.

I dont want to see migrants get shyte.

And the best way to do that is to address the issue, and not pretend there isn't one and labelling everyone who doesnt agree with you as a racist c**t.

There is nothing wrong with immigration, but it needs be well managed, balanced and sustainable.
 
I have worked with hard working migrants, i have worked with lazy ones and any shade of grey in between.

ANd the reason they are being given a hard time, is becausev government has been ingoring the concerns of the people and not addressing the issue. Just sticking their fingers in their ears singing la la la.

I dont want to see migrants get shyte.

And the best way to do that is to address the issue, and not pretend there isn't one and labelling everyone who doesnt agree with you as a racist c**t.

There is nothing wrong with immigration, but it needs be well managed, balanced and sustainable.
I have been saying that for years on here, same with illegal asylum as well. We need to take a fair amount. Does not stop some on here labelling you a nutter though.

Personally think the amount of people drowning is a disgrace, but I don't comment on that anymore. The far left nutters on here like to shout/shut down any sort of debate on that,much like the politicians do.


With my desire for more public ownership of services and getting rud of the Royal family and voting Labour I can claim to be left. But I'm like a northern left, the ones on here are Islington left, if you know what I mean.
 
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