Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Grays_1890]

No, I disagree. People would be happy to discuss it if it wasn't presented in such a false fashion. Immigration is not the no.1 threat to maintenance of a stable society and sustainable resource management. Those come from a tiny percentage of very wealthy policy influencers who continue to oversee the willful erosion of institutions such as education, health, housing and liveable wages via policies which increasingly only serve the maximum needs of a few. That's the discussion. Is immigration part of it? Absolutely. But I wholly refute the idea that it is the no.1 threat. Wholly.

Bravo

 

[Kompakted]

No, I disagree. People would be happy to discuss it if it wasn't presented in such a false fashion. Immigration is not the no.1 threat to maintenance of a stable society and sustainable resource management. Those come from a tiny percentage of very wealthy policy influencers who continue to oversee the willful erosion of institutions such as education, health, housing and liveable wages via policies which increasingly only serve the maximum needs of a few. That's the discussion. Is immigration part of it? Absolutely. But I wholly refute the idea that it is the no.1 threat. Wholly.

I mean putting aside the pseudo-conspiracy illuminati flavour of some of that, these policy influencers are part of the root-cause, as they've driven the notion that we are reliant on immigrant labour, when actually, it's just cheaper for them.

 

[Muttley]

I'm a little confused here. The UK have clearly stated the strategy is to prioritize skills and talent over nationality, and to reduce net migration.

They've laid out the points including things like treating EU and non-EU migrants equally. They implemented a points based system and are striving for increased border security. They seem to be restricting family members and having clear guidelines on minimal earnings per person and family. The long term plan is to reduce the dependency on the migrant workers. Obviously, stopping free movement of EU citizens is massive as well.

Clearly, Rome isn't built in a day and some of the executions are short term implementation whilst others will be mid / long term. Is it the case that the general public don't trust the government to implement these executions effectively?

Personally, I'm hoping that we've identified root causes and are putting in the policies and action plans to get more in control of our own destiny in this whole area. I guess we only find out when the next round of net migration figures are released, and the ones after that. If the numbers are favourable, I think a lot of the noise will die down from the general public about migration itself. I'm not sure it will on things like the ethnic minorities being overrepresented in the criminal justice system or the impact to the health system though. They are emotive subjects.

 

[SkipRat]

No, I disagree. People would be happy to discuss it if it wasn't presented in such a false fashion. Immigration is not the no.1 threat to maintenance of a stable society and sustainable resource management. Those come from a tiny percentage of very wealthy policy influencers who continue to oversee the willful erosion of institutions such as education, health, housing and liveable wages via policies which increasingly only serve the maximum needs of a few. That's the discussion. Is immigration part of it? Absolutely. But I wholly refute the idea that it is the no.1 threat. Wholly.

No people wouldn't don't want an honest debate regardless of how it was framed.

The problem is, the UK has never had an honest debate. You only have to look at yesterday, when I was called a racist c**t for being factually correct.

And this goes back decades. The status quo has been if you have concerns about migration of any kind you're a racist. That is as far as the conversation goes. On the middle class c**t fest that is the BBC, they have never given an honest report or debate. When interviewing people, just like the guardian et al, they interview the dreads of society that can barely string to sentences together. No different from the way the like of the Mail et al, use nut job hippies to tarnish people to agree with MMGW based on science.

I disagree with this wholeheartedly.

And no, it's not influencers, the Farmers Union and studies by Aberdeen and Edinburgh university the we have a problem with our resources, with food and water. We simple can't grow enough food to feed our population today. Over 60% now is imported from abroad. We haven;t been able to grow enough food since before we joined the EU. Net Zero = moving our carbon foot print abroad, whilst sounding green to buy votes.

What kind of macaronic government decides that mass migration to a country that already can't feed it's population is a f**king good idea. Especially when climate change will hit the poorest area's first, where we are getting lots of our food... As I stated before, the EU and China are over fishing off the coast of Senegal, driving migration from Senegal, not to mention Morroco buying their land... And it is not just Senegal...

The biggest lie ever told is that we are not over populated... Really!!

Everyone want's to save the planet, but do the square-root of feck all to do anything about it....

The Fen's, Britians food basket, the pressure to feed our bloated population through intensive farming means that in some area's, the furtile black soil that makes the fen's so fertile, has dropped by 9ft. Since the Roman's over 2000 years ago, we had this fertile land, and since the 1950/60's, we have uttle f*cked it.

And people think that adding 200,000+ people a year to a cluster-f*ck isn't a problem.

And the people who are will be paying the price this, are those in third world countries, who populations are expected to double by 2050, so where are they going to grow their food? Especial as climate change will be hammer the UK food supply. I am sure we won't go with out.... Just watch the virtue signalling tw*t waffles cry look at these starving people in third world countries they need your help.... As the UK, China, EU are sucking the countries dry of their resources like food and as I have already pointed out, already happening.

The problem is not influencers, it the people burying the heads in the ground pretending their aint a problem, and that mass migration isn't an issue. It's mass f**king issue long term.

Basic maths - 3 meals a day, brekkie, lunch and dinner - for one year.

3x365= 1095 meals a year.
200,000 net migrants x 1095 meals a year each = 219,000,000 extra meals a year.

Over the last 20 years? 4,380,000,000 extra meals a year and rising. Where is this food coming from? Who is losing out becaue of it? Why is the grain so important from the Ukraine?

This is just food alone. since 1997, our population has grown by 8-10 million people, 80% of which is due to migrants and them having children. So that figure is probably hire.

Sorry, not having a go at you, just sick to death of hearing it's about influences, or it's the right wing... No these warning about food etc have been going on for decades from various studies.

It's f**king nuts to let in 200,000 people a year, it really is helping no one, especially as the like of the USA, UK EU, are consuming more than their fair share of natural resources.

Oh and if you think Monsanto and GM crops is the answer, this is what Monsanto has done to India, they have f**ked soil ecology, they are charging farmers a fortune for fertalizer for the cotton field and the seeds... So the farmers are committing suicide by drinking pesticide...

Can't find the original video's... Shocking.... but this vid just scratches the surface of the problem.

If people really cared, then the solution is to make the world a better place, rather having token migrants for the virtue signalling feel good factor, look at us aren't we great.

 

[SkipRat]

I'm a little confused here. The UK have clearly stated the strategy is to prioritize skills and talent over nationality, and to reduce net migration.

They've laid out the points including things like treating EU and non-EU migrants equally. They implemented a points based system and are striving for increased border security. They seem to be restricting family members and having clear guidelines on minimal earnings per person and family. The long term plan is to reduce the dependency on the migrant workers. Obviously, stopping free movement of EU citizens is massive as well.

Clearly, Rome isn't built in a day and some of the executions are short term implementation whilst others will be mid / long term. Is it the case that the general public don't trust the government to implement these executions effectively?

Personally, I'm hoping that we've identified root causes and are putting in the policies and action plans to get more in control of our own destiny in this whole area. I guess we only find out when the next round of net migration figures are released, and the ones after that. If the numbers are favourable, I think a lot of the noise will die down from the general public about migration itself. I'm not sure it will on things like the ethnic minorities being overrepresented in the criminal justice system or the impact to the health system though. They are emotive subjects.

It's all sound bites. They don't want to stop mass migration as they don't want the peasants like lorry drivers getting another real increase in wage.

And the reason why it is so high, is because the Conservatives decide the best way to kick start the economy was to let in over 700,000 net, over a couple years (Mogg admitted this after the election result, seriously how stupid do you have to be, when the country is screaming stop the boats/mass migration, and you decide to let in net 700,000+), because they were so devoid of idea's on how to solve the nations problems, because all they want to do is suck off the wealthy and big business.

 

[SkipRat]

I do not believe that the majority of immigrants/migrants are sexual criminals, just like I don't believe the majority are criminals. That, for me, is selective spinning.

Just to clarify. I have never said that the majority are criminals, I said, as the reports I alluded too, state that they are "more likely to commit crime than local populations, as studies in Sweden, Germany, and Denmark have shown.

That is a huge difference and I agree with you, most migrants are not criminals. It also depends on where they come from too.

I respond to the rest at when I get more of chance.

 

[Muttley]

It's all sound bites. They don't want to stop mass migration as they don't want the peasants like lorry drivers getting another real increase in wage.

And the reason why it is so high, is because the Conservatives decide the best way to kick start the economy was to let in over 700,000 net, over a couple years (Mogg admitted this after the election result, seriously how stupid do you have to be, when the country is screaming stop the boats/mass migration, and you decide to let in net 700,000+), because they were so devoid of idea's on how to solve the nations problems, because all they want to do is suck off the wealthy and big business.

Again, I haven't gone deep into this but do remember a few areas that drove the 750k, of which I believe the majority was non-EU.

1) Ukraine war - we took our share of women and children

2) Hong Kong - the reciprocal agreement meant that those residents that were tired of Chinese rule migrated

3) Our healthcare system drove a large non-EU migration to fill roles. However, this was doubled with the healthcare workers spouses and dependents also joining them.

4) Students - international students and their dependants.

I don't disagree that the 750k put an additional burden on our country. I do see a logic of consolidating down on key areas like healthcare, food chain and energy e.g. Hinckley C is not live for another 2-3 years. It is that simple equation of import vs export just like trying to get control of all of the people emigrating abroad and taking money out of the UK. I'm all for adopting the US system and making them pay UK tax from overseas until they surrender their passport.

I don't think a net migration of 200-250k is unmanageable though, especially if that points based system and the other new policies are effective and controls things better than in the past. If the net migrators add to the economy then we will be in good shape.

I would like the government to come up with incentives to get the 700k empty houses in this country utilised. So many of them need a small grant to make them functional again and it's not as if we're not paying from the treasury to house our global share of asylum seekers.

 

[thfcsteff]

I mean putting aside the pseudo-conspiracy illuminati flavour of some of that, these policy influencers are part of the root-cause, as they've driven the notion that we are reliant on immigrant labour, when actually, it's just cheaper for them.

There's no 'illuminati pseudo-conspiracy flavour' there my friend. In fact, for THAT, you might care to read your own words immediately following LOL...

...FWIW I don't disagree!

 

[thfcsteff]

@SkipRat back in '97 I wrote about what Monsanto were doing with regards to their GM vegetables. Fish genes in tomatoes, etc...the 'ethics' of food production have been appalling for too long...

 

[thfcsteff]

Just to clarify. I have never said that the majority are criminals, I said, as the reports I alluded too, state that they are "more likely to commit crime than local populations, as studies in Sweden, Germany, and Denmark have shown.

That is a huge difference and I agree with you, most migrants are not criminals. It also depends on where they come from too.

I respond to the rest at when I get more of chance.

Apologies for misrepresenting your view, appreciate the clarification.

 

[Grays_1890]

Again, I haven't gone deep into this but do remember a few areas that drove the 750k, of which I believe the majority was non-EU.

1) Ukraine war - we took our share of women and children

2) Hong Kong - the reciprocal agreement meant that those residents that were tired of Chinese rule migrated

3) Our healthcare system drove a large non-EU migration to fill roles. However, this was doubled with the healthcare workers spouses and dependents also joining them.

4) Students - international students and their dependants.

I don't disagree that the 750k put an additional burden on our country. I do see a logic of consolidating down on key areas like healthcare, food chain and energy e.g. Hinckley C is not live for another 2-3 years. It is that simple equation of import vs export just like trying to get control of all of the people emigrating abroad and taking money out of the UK. I'm all for adopting the US system and making them pay UK tax from overseas until they surrender their passport.

I don't think a net migration of 200-250k is unmanageable though, especially if that points based system and the other new policies are effective and controls things better than in the past. If the net migrators add to the economy then we will be in good shape.

I would like the government to come up with incentives to get the 700k empty houses in this country utilised. So many of them need a small grant to make them functional again and it's not as if we're not paying from the treasury to house our global share of asylum seekers.

You also like to think that considering our contribution to the large displacement of people over the last 40 years that we would be a little more understanding. As I said earlier as we have 7m in employment, most of whom are in key jobs in IT, Services, Financial, Health, Mining and Energy and the hospitality sector of which 2 are of the largest contributors to the countries economy, you would think people would have a better answer of what they would do to counter what they see as a "threat" other than a load of "just because" answers.

The idea that people would vote for someone who would likely crash the economy further because they align on immigration (Brexit anyone) is just scary TBH

 

[Muttley]

You also like to think that considering our contribution to the large displacement of people over the last 40 years that we would be a little more understanding. As I said earlier as we have 7m in employment, most of whom are in key jobs in IT, Services, Financial, Health, Mining and Energy and the hospitality sector of which 2 are of the largest contributors to the countries economy, you would think people would have a better answer of what they would do to counter what they see as a "threat" other than a load of "just because" answers.

The idea that people would vote for someone who would likely crash the economy further because they align on immigration (Brexit anyone) is just scary TBH

Mum died recently from dementia. We had one carer, Rita, from Uganda that had been studying to be a doctor in Ukraine. When it all kicked off there with Putin she had to flee that country quickly. She's ended up a carer in Kent, earning a pittance compared to her natural potential. She is so over qualified for what she now does but is obviously brilliant at it. She will now need to reset and start studying again (from the beginning) in the British system to realise her dream of being a doctor.

As you say, people in this country don't think of these rockstars when they talk about immigration. They lead humble, wholesome lives and integrate into our system. Our family will always be indebted to her for the love, care and expertise she gave my mum in her final chapter of life.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

That's great, and how is it that working out in America, the UK and and across Europe?

You looking forward to Trump being in power? I'm not.

But then people band those words around like confetti at a wedding and ultimately lose their power of what they.

What? Even Republicans are saying Trump is a fascist. You are a bit deluded my friend. Isn't he extreme enough for you?

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Thing about Farage and every other far-right politician across Europe whose profile and electoral success has been significantly increased over the last decade or so, is that if mainstream politicians had actually listened to people's concerns and done something about it when they were first being voiced in ernest, people wouldn't have turned to them. In the UK, I go back to the 2010 election amd Gordon Brown labelling a Labour voter in the north a "bigot" when she was questioning him regarding high levels of immigration. There was still an opportunity here for Labour to prevent the beginning of a shift in some of their voter base to precursors of Reform. The Tories also had the same opportunity. People turn to extremes in large numbers when they feel like they don't have any other choice.

Yep, Germany could have invaded Poland much earlier.

 

[Grays_1890]

Mum died recently from dementia. We had one carer, Rita, from Uganda that had been studying to be a doctor in Ukraine. When it all kicked off there with Putin she had to flee that country quickly. She's ended up a carer in Kent, earning a pittance compared to her natural potential. She is so over qualified for what she now does but is obviously brilliant at it. She will now need to reset and start studying again (from the beginning) in the British system to realise her dream of being a doctor.

As you say, people in this country don't think of these rockstars when they talk about immigration. They lead humble, wholesome lives and integrate into our system. Our family will always be indebted to her for the love, care and expertise she gave my mum in her final chapter of life.

Mate and this is why words matter, like I keep saying and I know its boring, but the lack of interest in separating out who people really mean to just paint all immigrants in a bad light, without reflecting on the vast good that many did and do for this country, it just astonishes me really.

My mate does alot of work for the Paul Hamlyn foundation who work with alot of initiatives to get migrants support and rights when they are here working, amongst other things and you hear the stories and the impact on these people, many whom like you say are over qualified but here working hard, only for people to tout around broad stroked comments like "migrants are a threat", its just lazy and dangerous.

And to add to your bold part, absolutely this and this every day, yes there are exceptions to the rule but they need to be talked about as individuals and not attributed to those who are here, working hard and contributing to society, there are millions of those.

 

[SkipRat]

I have been saying that for years on here, same with illegal asylum as well. We need to take a fair amount. Does not stop some on here labelling you a nutter though.

Personally think the amount of people drowning is a disgrace, but I don't comment on that anymore. The far left nutters on here like to shout/shut down any sort of debate on that,much like the politicians do.


With my desire for more public ownership of services and getting rud of the Royal family and voting Labour I can claim to be left. But I'm like a northern left, the ones on here are Islington left, if you know what I mean.

Yup. The Australians had to the same regarding junk boats. They refused entry to anyone that did and the numbers of people dying frantically dropped. They then opened centres offshore... When they closed these offshore centres, then number of deaths went up.

The reason why people use the boats, is not because they are desperate, its because they know we won't send them back.

Is a sure for easy in... as soon as you let one in, they will all try to come in... It's human nature...

Is the same everything, as soon as you allow one person to get away with something, everyone else will try to follow suit.

And by refusing to do anything about, it's traffickers who benefit, exposing migrants to the possibilty of death...

And what is going after traffickers going to do? F**k all, just cutting the head off the hydra only for it grow back. In exactly the same way as the war on drugs.

Is never going to work and we will be wasting billions...

 

[SkipRat]

The last government had a standard three word slogan of "Stop the boats", to say they didn't address it is well off, they just couldn't solve the problem.

You have put around words like balanced and sustainable without actually stating what that means to you and how you would go about achieving it. FWIW I'm not saying you need to have an exact solution be permitted to discuss a situation/ topic but it's worth showing a bit of humility in stating you don't have the solution - It's pretty easy to say "Well the government need to show some common sense and sort this out", I'm of course paraphrasing but that's the general vibe I'm getting, prove me wrong.

The way you stomp around declaring that nobody knows anything and anyone you're in disagreement with debates like a 3 year old, it's fairly likely you'll be labelled a clam, if you act like one it's sort of inevitable that you'll be described as one. It's only Steff who has the absolute patience of a saint who had managed to reign you in to something that resembles a discussion, not many have the patience to chat with you and other problematic posters like he does! It might worth considering a change of tact as it is not necessarily not be the "far left" (whatever that means) shouting you down, it's just a bad approach to communication.

Maybe if people don't want to be labelled as debating like a 3 year old, then maybe they shouldn't go around calling people racist c**ts especially when trying to make people out to the liars, then being proved hysterically wrong, because, they were so arrogant in their assumption that they were correct.

Only for them print screen, cut and paste half a title to mislead and lie, in order to claim that I am the one who is lying.

When everyone can see, now, that my claims were 100% correct, found on exactly the same page that Mr liar who likes to throw his teddies out pram screaming racist c**t used.

And he still hasn't apologies to me, because he is a coward and can;t admit to himself that he is wrong, about everything.

Since I first posted on this thread, the first thing people call me and insinuated was that I was racist. It's funny who this so called racist knows so much about what is actually going on.

As a solution, I like a points based system, that doesn't set the bar so low anyone who applies can get in. I say a minimum requirement of £50,000 - £60,000 ar a minimum....

And no, I don;t care if this prevents nurses from other countries coming... As the real solution is, fix the f*cking countries problems, so that quality of life and working conditions are not so sh*t that the nurses we have trained over the last 30 years have either left the NHS to work else or gone abroad. Solve the problem of retention and we wouldn't need migrant nurses to save the NHS in the first place.

And no, I am not blaming migrants, I am blaming sh*t government after sh*t government for the last 40-50 years.

 

[SkipRat]

Again, I haven't gone deep into this but do remember a few areas that drove the 750k, of which I believe the majority was non-EU.

1) Ukraine war - we took our share of women and children

2) Hong Kong - the reciprocal agreement meant that those residents that were tired of Chinese rule migrated

3) Our healthcare system drove a large non-EU migration to fill roles. However, this was doubled with the healthcare workers spouses and dependents also joining them.

4) Students - international students and their dependants.

I don't disagree that the 750k put an additional burden on our country. I do see a logic of consolidating down on key areas like healthcare, food chain and energy e.g. Hinckley C is not live for another 2-3 years. It is that simple equation of import vs export just like trying to get control of all of the people emigrating abroad and taking money out of the UK. I'm all for adopting the US system and making them pay UK tax from overseas until they surrender their passport.

I don't think a net migration of 200-250k is unmanageable though, especially if that points based system and the other new policies are effective and controls things better than in the past. If the net migrators add to the economy then we will be in good shape.

I would like the government to come up with incentives to get the 700k empty houses in this country utilised. So many of them need a small grant to make them functional again and it's not as if we're not paying from the treasury to house our global share of asylum seekers.

The 750,000+ regardless of where they come from and for what reasons, the vast majority of it, that was admitted by Mogg in an interview after the election obliteration, was they allowed these numbers in to try and kick start the economy, and that they had got it wrong. IIRC, most were to do students and their families or something, I honestly can't remember all the details. It was on and interview with GBNews. Not sure if you can find it though, it maybe archived somewhere.

An no, I don't have problem with taking refugees from Ukraine, they are refugees, mainly women and children. I don't have problem with genuine refugees at all, the problem is most of the people who come to the UK at the moment are not genuine refugees, especially those arriving by boat.

Hinkley C is another example of poor government management and decision making spanning 30-40 years, and putting deals before interests (large scale solar is cheaper), just like the current labour party are using carbon storage as a green tag, that will do the square-root of f*ck all, wasting 22 billion in investment. This money should be spent on green energy production, such as geothermal, solar, bio-solar (green algae solar panels), Wind is a joke of an energy production, push by renewable nazi's,

Going into the future, we will probably need many different technologies all working together.

 

[Muttley]

The 750,000+ regardless of where they come from and for what reasons, the vast majority of it, that was admitted by Mogg in an interview after the election obliteration, was they allowed these numbers in to try and kick start the economy, and that they had got it wrong. IIRC, most were to do students and their families or something, I honestly can't remember all the details. It was on and interview with GBNews. Not sure if you can find it though, it maybe archived somewhere.

An no, I don't have problem with taking refugees from Ukraine, they are refugees, mainly women and children. I don't have problem with genuine refugees at all, the problem is most of the people who come to the UK at the moment are not genuine refugees, especially those arriving by boat.

Hinkley C is another example of poor government management and decision making spanning 30-40 years, and putting deals before interests (large scale solar is cheaper), just like the current labour party are using carbon storage as a green tag, that will do the square-root of f*ck all, wasting 22 billion in investment. This money should be spent on green energy production, such as geothermal, solar, bio-solar (green algae solar panels), Wind is a joke of an energy production, push by renewable nazi's,

Going into the future, we will probably need many different technologies all working together.

Investment in students clearly isn't to stimulate the economy now. That's one of the mid-term bets. We can only measure that impact down the line. I think the problem was the dependents that we ended up supporting with the students, especially the post graduate bunch. Didn't we implement a new policy to control that piece?

As for Hinkley C, I agree. We've basically sold our soul to the French and seen all the investment support another country's economy. We need to stop doing that. As you say, it will be a multi-pronged approach to enhancing energy across nuclear, solar, wind etc. I think I have more confidence in us improving energy options as a country by 2030 than I do other things like health, crime and even education.

 

[Batspur]

Mate and this is why words matter, like I keep saying and I know its boring, but the lack of interest in separating out who people really mean to just paint all immigrants in a bad light, without reflecting on the vast good that many did and do for this country, it just astonishes me really.

My mate does alot of work for the Paul Hamlyn foundation who work with alot of initiatives to get migrants support and rights when they are here working, amongst other things and you hear the stories and the impact on these people, many whom like you say are over qualified but here working hard, only for people to tout around broad stroked comments like "migrants are a threat", its just lazy and dangerous.

And to add to your bold part, absolutely this and this every day, yes there are exceptions to the rule but they need to be talked about as individuals and not attributed to those who are here, working hard and contributing to society, there are millions of those.

This is one of their slogans. 'Work with us to bring about a world in which everyone is free to move, and no one is forced to move.' Are you in that camp? Come one come all? Hearing anecdotal evidence of a migrant/immigrant doing a good job does not mean all the people arriving are doctors and engineers. Quite the opposite. The vast majority of students are working in the gig economy adding very little to the economy. The asylum seekers and illegals are costing us billions a year and will do for years as they are processed. Why is it that they throw their documents, passports into the sea if they are genuine? We do not have the infrastructure for our own people let alone building a new Birmingham every year. Cambridgeshire is being turned into a building site for houses with zero new doctors let alone hospitals. If you're lucky you might get a Tesco Express on your estate. I'm left wing but I am sick of going to work to pay taxes to feed and house illegals when I am having to struggle at home. It's ridiculous.