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Tom Carroll

braineclipse said:
Apart from one EL game Holtby looked out of place in the Mason role. Didn't look like he had the discipline and or mobility to play that deep effectively in the Premier League.

Carroll on the other hand has played that role for Swansea I believe, and for QPR in the Championship last season. The step up to our team might not be as great as we imagine seeing as Mason stepped up from League one to us. Like Carroll he's fairly mobile and seems to have a lot of stamina.
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I think Holtby is/could be mobile enough, but I agree that positional discipline is his real weakness. I do think Poch could coach that into him though

I thought Carroll was mainly being used this season as a late sub for Siggy in the #10 role?

The two things the trouble me about Carroll is i) that he's a bit flimsy and ii) that he tends to pass sideways rather than forward. The bite of Mason and Bentaleb, and the assertiveness of their passing are what sets them well apart from Carroll for me.

Remember Carroll is also 22 now - not 18 (like he looks). He's the same age as Eriksen, who has played 7 seasons of top flight football and won 50 international caps
 
Gutter Boy said:
I think Holtby is/could be mobile enough, but I agree that positional discipline is his real weakness. I do think Poch could coach that into him though

I thought Carroll was mainly being used this season as a late sub for Siggy in the #10 role?

The two things the trouble me about Carroll is i) that he's a bit flimsy and ii) that he tends to pass sideways rather than forward. The bite of Mason and Bentaleb, and the assertiveness of their passing are what sets them well apart from Carroll for me.

Remember Carroll is also 22 now - not 18 (like he looks). He's the same age as Eriksen, who has played 7 seasons of top flight football and won 50 international caps
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I haven't had the chance to watch him for Swansea unfortunately. (why I put "I believe"). My impression was that he replaced Shelvey in a somewhat deeper (or perhaps box to box) role when Shelvey was injured at least. Whoscored.com (http://www.whoscored.com/Players/90907/) has him as a "defensive midfielder" for his 3 starts at least. From what I've seen they tend to be fairly accurate with stuff like that. However if anyone's actually seen those games from Carroll I will obviously have to change my mind :)

Yes, he is 22, which makes him a year younger than Mason and at this time last season Mason was playing League One football.

I agree that Eriksen seems like a bigger talent than Carroll right now. Impossible to argue against, but it's hardly the comparison worth making. Had Carroll been Danish and spent the last 7 years of his career at a Dutch top league club I think those numbers would be a lot closer. We also have to accept that we're going to have worse players than Christian Eriksen in our squad for at least a bit longer.

A more relevant comparison is to the current level of ability of Paulinho, Dembele etc and how well they fit our style of play and the roles we need cover for compared to Carroll.

Edit: For me, the bottom line is that come January if we're in a situation like we were against Palace with Mason coming off because he's exhausted and us struggling for passing tempo and Carroll, Paulinho and Dembele were on the bench I know who I would rather have come on. If the question were who should start if Mason was rotated, same answer for me.

Below that bottom line there's another which is if he can even be recalled. Sadly no one seems to know...
 
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Gutter Boy said:
I'd prefer Holtby back.

He has the physical side to his game (alongside his passing) that Bentaleb and Mason do, but Carroll doesn't.
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Holtby is ****.

Headless chicken, couldn't follow instructions and has a poor passing range,

Tom carroll is an exceptional passer and a v different player to holtby

Both would be better options than pauk
 
Gutter Boy said:
I think Holtby is/could be mobile enough, but I agree that positional discipline is his real weakness. I do think Poch could coach that into him though

I thought Carroll was mainly being used this season as a late sub for Siggy in the #10 role?

The two things the trouble me about Carroll is i) that he's a bit flimsy and ii) that he tends to pass sideways rather than forward. The bite of Mason and Bentaleb, and the assertiveness of their passing are what sets them well apart from Carroll for me.

Remember Carroll is also 22 now - not 18 (like he looks). He's the same age as Eriksen, who has played 7 seasons of top flight football and won 50 international caps
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What does that matter? Mason is already 23 and hadn't played any seasons of top flight football until this season.

Holtby is masively over rated on here for some reason. Doesn't have a good range of passing, isn't great in the tackle, hasn't got any positional sense, doesn't score a lot of goals. I've seen nothing from him other than one great strike and a good pass to Defoe in the Europa League.
 
braineclipse said:
I haven't had the chance to watch him for Swansea unfortunately. (why I put "I believe"). My impression was that he replaced Shelvey in a somewhat deeper (or perhaps box to box) role when Shelvey was injured at least. Whoscored.com (http://www.whoscored.com/Players/90907/) has him as a "defensive midfielder" for his 3 starts at least. From what I've seen they tend to be fairly accurate with stuff like that. However if anyone's actually seen those games from Carroll I will obviously have to change my mind :)

Yes, he is 22, which makes him a year younger than Mason and at this time last season Mason was playing League One football.

I agree that Eriksen seems like a bigger talent than Carroll right now. Impossible to argue against, but it's hardly the comparison worth making. Had Carroll been Danish and spent the last 7 years of his career at a Dutch top league club I think those numbers would be a lot closer. We also have to accept that we're going to have worse players than Christian Eriksen in our squad for at least a bit longer.

A more relevant comparison is to the current level of ability of Paulinho, Dembele etc and how well they fit our style of play and the roles we need cover for compared to Carroll.

Edit: For me, the bottom line is that come January if we're in a situation like we were against Palace with Mason coming off because he's exhausted and us struggling for passing tempo and Carroll, Paulinho and Dembele were on the bench I know who I would rather have come on. If the question were who should start if Mason was rotated, same answer for me.

Below that bottom line there's another which is if he can even be recalled. Sadly no one seems to know...
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I've only seen odd bits of Swansea, definitely not enough to comment on how well he's doing or where he's primarily playing (though I have definitely seen him directly replace Siggy once if not twice).

I'm certainly more than happy to recall him and have him in the squad ahead of as many as possible of Paulinho, Dembele and Capoue. I just think of the two that Holtby is a better player and more ready (though perhaps we can bring both back and lose all three of the above).
 
LCLC said:
Holtby is ****.

Headless chicken, couldn't follow instructions and has a poor passing range,

Tom carroll is an exceptional passer and a v different player to holtby

Both would be better options than pauk
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What a load of **** this post is.
 
They have normally used him to replace Siggy to chase or hold a lead

When he has started in was in place of leon Britton in the more holding type role
 
Yiddo said:
What a load of **** this post is.
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Holtby is not a good player. Are you actually serious? Another player who because he runs around, applauds the fans and gives the whole #COYS at any opportunity - fans love him. It's crazy. I've never cringed more at Ledley's testimonial when fans sang '' we want you to stay'

Lovely guy but isn't as good as dembele, Mason, bentelab etc so it's obvious why he doesn't get in our squad
 
Last season Tom Carroll and Holtby both played in a Europa game and Carroll definately came out of it looking the better player. Holtby though does have the engine though to chase all game, something I'm not sure Carroll does. As someone else said, this season when he has started he's played alongside Ki in that deep role and has kept the game simple. He has also looked capable when defending. He does not however move the ball around as quickly as Mason. For the U21's he has played both high up the field and deep. Has always looked dangerous when playing further up the pitch, especially if there are runners for him to pick out.
 
LCLC said:
Holtby is not a good player. Are you actually serious? Another player who because he runs around, applauds the fans and gives the whole #COYS at any opportunity - fans love him. It's crazy. I've never cringed more at Ledley's testimonial when fans sang '' we want you to stay'

Lovely guy but isn't as good as dembele, Mason, bentelab etc so it's obvious why he doesn't get in our squad
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Holtby is better than Mason and the 3 assists for Defoe that time showed how good he can be.
 
I thought Holtbys sale was finalized?

Re Carroll - often people mention sideways passing.
He is good at keeping possession plays sideways when there is only a holy wood ball on.
When there is a bit of movement or space he tries excellent passes and also dribbles into gaps looking for movement and a pass.
He is like Modric in that regard ( not saying he is the same quality).

The problem with our team is the lack of intelligent movement means any creative passers are wasted in CM.
It needs to be the AM 3 that dominate in front of the defence, playing the 'killer' pass.
( instead of having lots of movement for midfielders to make passes, creating space and moving the oppositions shape).

Carroll would have suited the team 3-4 years ago.
 
That said, he recycles possession well, so maybe he would in our team.
The downside being when it breaks down is he tough enough in CM? But he can toughen up - he has bite, just not the physicality
 
Yiddo said:
Holtby is better than Mason and the 3 assists for Defoe that time showed how good he can be.
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Every single player in the premier league has it in them to do things like that (or the equivalent as a defender), they are proffessional footballers after all. What separates the good ones from the average ones is that the good ones do good things consistantly. What separates the fantastic ones from the good ones is that the fantastic ones do good things consistantly and fantastic things at least once a game.

Holltby is an average footballer who from time to time does good things. Mason hasn't played enough yet to know if he's any better, but at the moment he is doing good things consistantly, but not too many fantastic things. Time will tell who's better.
 
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