Ange in or out?

[Daveeeeeeeed]

I'm not sure that this is the case to be honest. Not that I think our players have downed tools - I think they're too professional to do that. However, to me they look like they have no faith in what they are doing - there is no belief there. That extra few per cent a manager can get from players - it's not there.

When I see the manager's demeanour and listen to him speak, I think we're seeing a manager unravel before our eyes. He looks like he doesn't know what to do. Players will pick up on that stuff.

100%. These players arent stupid, they have social media, they watch MOTD, they probably see the interviews and whatsapp their own group. Who knows. They are probably glued to their phones as much as we are due to their free time.

I would say they definitely pick up on stuff. They might even read crap on here.

 

[DubSpur]

I'm not sure that this is the case to be honest. Not that I think our players have downed tools - I think they're too professional to do that. However, to me they look like they have no faith in what they are doing - there is no belief there. That extra few per cent a manager can get from players - it's not there.

When I see the manager's demeanour and listen to him speak, I think we're seeing a manager unravel before our eyes. He looks like he doesn't know what to do. Players will pick up on that stuff.

Is it no faith in what they are doing or being tired? Kulu looks out on his feet but is still trying. Sarr played even though injured, if he wasn't behind the manager he wouldn't have done that. It's hard to know if some players have lost faith.

 

[Daveeeeeeeed]

Is it no faith in what they are doing or being tired? Kulu looks out on his feet but is still trying. Sarr played even though injured, if he wasn't behind the manager he wouldn't have done that. It's hard to know if some players have lost faith.

I think they are running out of ideas though as they are drilled to play one way and thats it. You look at other managers and they are coaching their players throughout the game and telling them to do stuff. Ange rarely does that, so its all pre-planned but when its going wrong what do they do?

That's where I think they lose the faith, because they go 2 3 down for example and have no idea what to do other than play the way they have been told. There are no reactions, just pre-planned drills.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I know the question isn't aimed at me. But i'd say more attractive.
Starting with a very low bar. Good young talent. Haven't got the captain and all time top scorer leaving.
A good coach will surely think he can do better with this squad than ange.

The squad is much better overall now, with some really promising young players.

I see your points; but i guess it depends on what the ambition (on both sides) is...remember we don't have a generational goalscorer anymore, wand whilst maybe when Ange was employed the uncertainty (or if we're being honest, certainty) about whether he was staying or going may have put off one or two prospective coaches, you could argue having him (and Son) was what made us relatively attractive before.

Not having Kane or a world class player of that level means whilst we will likely get someone who can perform more competently than Ange, i'm not sure we'd be able to attract the level of coach who knows his way around the upper levels of European competition. I even think we might struggle to attract Iraola because of our recent past

 

[billyiddo]

I think we are in a better place now for a prospective new manager than where we were when we appointed Ange. Squad is in a better shape with clear wiggle room in terms of space and budget to add without first needing to shift on lots of deadwood. A clean slate almost.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Is it no faith in what they are doing or being tired? Kulu looks out on his feet but is still trying. Sarr played even though injured, if he wasn't behind the manager he wouldn't have done that. It's hard to know if some players have lost faith.

That's another way of looking at it and you could be right and I could be wrong - we're all guessing.

But lads like Salah, Van Dijk, Gravenberch, Gvardiol have all played more minutes than Deki this year in the league and have been heavily involved in Europe and don't look nearly as spent. Helps that their clubs are winning games.

 

[Lilbaz]

I had short hair when we hired Ange and now I have long hair. My wife finds me far less attractive now and I have been much less of a clam than Ange.

You should see the state of @glorygloryeze

 

[glorygloryeze]

You should see the state of @glorygloryeze

I'm actually doing fine, whilst chomping on a load of popcorn...

 

[DubSpur]

That's another way of looking at it and you could be right and I could be wrong - we're all guessing.

But lads like Salah, Van Dijk, Gravenberch, Gvardiol have all played more minutes than Deki this year in the league and have been heavily involved in Europe and don't look nearly as spent. Helps that their clubs are winning games.

Definitely helps that they are winning, gives a mental boost. Besides that I'd say the ground covered and more importantly the sprints per game would be higher for us. This is what will have the bigger impact on fatigue and muscle injuries.

 

[Legohamster]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1883909814415397355

 

[markysimmo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1883902809700958646

 

[Jordinho]

If we beat Elfsborg, at least there's a free week after Villa to make a change. Two months too late, but better than nothing.

 

[thfcsteff]

There's been nothing wrong with the questions he's been asked. Asking him about a familiar story and how he feels about is perfectly reasonable and isn't snide at all. You're really defending the indefensible here.

No, I really am not. I'm pointing out that he said one thing which has been blown into this antagonistic caricature. When it comes to media, and you'll have to trust me on this, I know both what I'm talking about and how various areas of media behave/what modern editors look for.

 

[Mrs Vert]

Is it no faith in what they are doing or being tired? Kulu looks out on his feet but is still trying. Sarr played even though injured, if he wasn't behind the manager he wouldn't have done that. It's hard to know if some players have lost faith.

Going by not much. I think Madders has post faith

 

[Robspur12]

No, I really am not. I'm pointing out that he said one thing which has been blown into this antagonistic caricature. When it comes to media, and you'll have to trust me on this, I know both what I'm talking about and how various areas of media behave/what modern editors look for.

Coming out to confront a fan yesterday who had said something harmless was not a good look though.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I am really struggling with this and have been pondering it all day. I want/ wanted to give Ange every possibility to succeed and I am totally behind the idea of a rebuild that will take time to come to fruition.
And I’m happy to temper any expectations during that time. But my line in the sand has been serious risk of relegation which I never thought would really happen, and still don’t really think it will (wishful thinking maybe) but it’s now becoming a huge risk that we simply cannot let happen. I haven’t seen the NLD, Everton or Leicester games so my info on those have come from match reviews and from posts on here and it doesn’t sound good at all. I think Levy will stick it out as long as possible as a) he will be listening to Munn and Lange and b) I believe he wants Ange to succeed as he represents (philosophically) the type of football that we all wanted. But he’s not going to risk us getting relegated - and rightly so - therefore Ange has a very limited time to turn this around. The one thing that gives me hope is that the players are still playing for him (at least those who are fit to be selected - and who knows if all injuries are genuine or some players are ducking responsibility) - which means they are still tuned in to his philosophy. So on balance I’d like to give him to end of season to see how he turns it around - but we have to bring in re-enforcements, even if just loans, to see us through. And he has to change some of his decisions and game management (can he do that?).

I think when managers such as Ange start to compromise the game is up. You end up neither here nor there and lack a clear identity. So I don’t think he can change so quickly. It takes him time to do things, as we’ve seen with protecting the goal keeper. He got there but it took a month.

But lose to Brentford and Utd and he has to go. I’m ignoring the cups for now as the league is the most important. We simply cannot get relegated.
I suppose it’s heart says in. Head says out. Heart wins for now but it’s wavering hugely.

He is a highly intelligent, exceptional motivator. And get his system working and it’s exciting and potent. A stripped out setup that breaks easily but can be highly effective especially once refined.

But like you I’ve lost faith now. Losing to a terrible Everton and Leicester is the end. We give up goals too easily. And yes it is not as bad with our first choice defence, but we still give up goals too often. It’s frustrating as we will be the better side and outplay teams yet flunk a couple of goals and throw it all away.

And it’s the context that decides Anges fate. We are not a Brighton or Bournemouth where you get time and can build. The nagging of a large club means Ange himself starts compromising his setup, the fans get in his face, the media ramp up and it is a miracle that can do his job at all in the face of all the distraction and negativity.

There is more to Postecoglou than fans think. He’s more astute than it seems right now. I like that he is pushing the boundaries of what is viable in football, and get it right and we’d be scintillating. But there isn’t the patience or backing, and there isn’t a half-Ange way to play. You commit to the stripped out all or nothing and ensure it’s all, or it’s bust.

 

[Muttley]

It's interesting, as time moves on the Ange debate is becoming even more polarised.

On one extreme you have the ABA'ers - Anything But Ange. This group will find every reason possible to absolve Ange from the problem. Seems the ABA'ers are perhaps on Lange's case as a different place to channel energies. I'm even hearing "we're not playing Ange ball anymore. It can't be that"

On the other side we have the Ange out phalanx who just believe that everything negative at our club is down to him personally. He is the antichrist of THFC and has been sent in to fudge us up. He deliberately does the opposite of what he should be doing.

Sometimes it feels like anything you write will be attacked by one of the 2 groups. lol - you can't win.

 

[Daveeeeeeeed]

It's interesting, as time moves on the Ange debate is becoming even more polarised.

On one extreme you have the ABA'ers - Anything But Ange. This group will find every reason possible to absolve Ange from the problem. Seems the ABA'ers are perhaps on Lange's case as a different place to channel energies. I'm even hearing "we're not playing Ange ball anymore. It can't be that"

On the other side we have the Ange out phalanx who just believe that everything negative at our club is down to him personally. He is the antichrist of THFC and has been sent in to fudge us up. He deliberately does the opposite of what he should be doing.

Sometimes it feels like anything you write will be attacked by one of the 2 groups. lol - you can't win.

Where do you sit? I wont attack, promise.

 

[Robspur12]

There is more to Postecoglou than fans think. He’s more astute than it seems right now. I like that he is pushing the boundaries of what is viable in football, and get it right and we’d be scintillating. But there isn’t the patience or backing, and there isn’t a half-Ange way to play. You commit to the stripped out all or nothing and ensure it’s all, or it’s bust.

I wanted to like your post because I agree with a lot of it. But I can’t agree with the bolded part. All out attack, although gets you goals, is not a winning strategy; he’s no great tactical innovator. Pressing high to cause turnovers near the opposition goal was not invented by Ange. Poch did it, Pep does it (albeit with better players) and Iraola is doing it to great effect with Bournemouth. What Ange singular fails to do is to stop the goals going in at the other end when we lose possession. Our shape is so chaotic out of possession that other teams create good chances against us every game even poor teams. It’s amazing when you look at our results against the teams around us in the bottom to see how many of them were struggling for a result when we played them. Ipswich, Palace (when we had pretty much full strength teams) Everton and now Leicester. They all get a lift from playing Spurs. Other than Soton we must be the team that other teams look forward to playing. And I’m afraid that’s on Ange’s and his system.

 

[Raziel]

It's interesting, as time moves on the Ange debate is becoming even more polarised.

On one extreme you have the ABA'ers - Anything But Ange. This group will find every reason possible to absolve Ange from the problem. Seems the ABA'ers are perhaps on Lange's case as a different place to channel energies. I'm even hearing "we're not playing Ange ball anymore. It can't be that"

On the other side we have the Ange out phalanx who just believe that everything negative at our club is down to him personally. He is the antichrist of THFC and has been sent in to fudge us up. He deliberately does the opposite of what he should be doing.

Sometimes it feels like anything you write will be attacked by one of the 2 groups. lol - you can't win.

People in general don't like nuance, much easier to believe it's all Ange, or all Levy, the viewpoint I never can understand is the "we can't find a manger", every fudging club finds a manager, especially ones who have money.